Bringing everyone else down with me

[WordsAndWorlds]

One of my colleagues had a half hour rant today about wanting No Deal. She doesn't know which way I voted, and I was interested to hear her reasons so I bit my tongue, stayed very quiet and just listened. This is what she said...

She said that she has nothing to lose through Brexit and ND. She has spent 10 years working but never got into a job that pays enough for the quality of life she'd want- in fact, she's recently moved back in with her parents because after splitting with her partner, she can no longer afford rent alone. She says if she can survive in that living situation and on a low salary, the rest of the country can too for the greater good. We then need to work towards rebuilding the system so that everybody is on a more level playing field, housing more affordable, and a more middle ground standard of wages and types of housing rather than some particularly good and some far worse.

She says if she was a business owner and part of a group of companies where the others in the group were dictating what her company could and couldn't do at the expense of maximising profit and being true to their mission and values, there would be no question about leaving the group and going independent. So it should be exactly the same with the EU. It may be the case that ND is not a desirable outcome, but staying is unacceptable and nothing better has been put forward as a compromise so it HAS to be ND because that is democracy and it would be undemocratic not to leave.

This is the essence of why people voted for Brexit (in the main). Disenfranchisement.

When you live in a society where you can’t get on through your own hard work you become disenfranchised. You feel forgotten and ignored and then you lash out. A big part of this is sky high house prices. Add to this the left liberal obsession with social rights (gay rights etc) - the left stopped caring about the economy. And it’s always about the economy. And you have a toxic mix.

This is nothing new revolutions always happen when people feel desperate. Once remainders and Europe understand this they could (have) solves it. Make things fair.

Brexit will help this. Wages will rise. Companies will be forced to pay more. House prices will come down and it will be easier to get on.

We should never have take our eyes off of the rising inequality of the last 30 years.

(Same problem led to trump and gilet jaunes).

the left stopped caring about the economy. And it’s always about the economy.

But is it ok that the right has the balance of power and has now stopped caring about the overall economy, as long as there is a huge top slice for their own?

But the young voted largely (75%) for Remain and they are the ones affected by high property prices.

Brexit will take away workers rights. At the moment these are enshrined in European legislation and these will disappear allowing dodgy firms to take advantage of the vacuum. How will wages rise if there are no trade deals, firms relocate and unemployment rises?

One thing that seriously gets my goat in the op is that the speaker said 'She could survive so others could too'. She survived by moving back in with her parents. Some of us don't have that option. Some of us didn't have that option even when we were in our 20s and 30s - hers is not the first generation to have to work two jobs to pay someone else's mortgage - and there are many people worse off than I ever was.

Other than that I recognise a common anger at economic deterioration. Housing seems to be the major factor here, and the mess that's been made there now looks like a foreshadow of the whole Brexit fiasco.

Lonelyplanetmum - it’s the lefts fault that it let the right take the lead. Of course it’s not right that the right only care about the top. But in a pluralistic society there should be a strong opposition (and strong unions).

Littlespace 18 -24 year old largely voted for remain. The age when you have barely started your career , they don’t understand or care about house prices yet. They are not ground down yet and disenfranchised.

There will be trade deals and companies won’t move. We’re too important (our geographical position is never mentioned - the cities time zone is bang in the middle of us and Asia). Wages will rise with less immigration, people will work harder with less competition that you can’t compete with ( people not having to support a family).

The one thing that really gets my goat is the rascist view that brits are lazy. Everyone’s lazy when they’ve got no hope.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/16/uk-pay-growth-unemployment

Danger I agree we’re not the first generation to work two jobs. But the gap has never been so stark. Remember people don’t mind the beckhams being rich but they compare themselves to Barbara down the road, Sarah from school and their older brother. Now you are surrounded by people who have so much more than you and here’s the killer bit, even if u have 10 jobs you’ll never get there. And they did nothing special to get there they just brought a house or went to uni before fees.

Brexit will take away workers rights.

The Coalition and the Tories have managed that very comprehensively with narray a squeak from Brussels.

OP - as far as your colleague goes,1) It's not a race to the bottom. We should be levelling people up not dragging them down. 2) Misery loves company - does she want everybody to live like she does? Grim.

Yes she does want people to weezol. That’s the point. It’s only logical if you’ve ever felt hopeless or disenfranchised.

She sounds very confused about what communism and capitalism actually are. One one hand she infers the EU is holding Britain back and leaving is a way of maximising it’s profits and chances, then on the other she says that she wants everything on a level. Those two statements are polar opposites - one is capitalism, the other is communism. You can’t have both!

Incidentally I have some strong socialist leanings and would welcome barriers and limits on how much wealth people and businesses can make, and I would like state intervention to take away wealth after a certain level and redistribute it back into society. However - that is not what advocates of a no deal Brexit want! Their whole reasoning is so the UK can forge its own trade deals at the most beneficial levels and boost the economy. Capitalism.

I also voted Leave (not for the same reasons as her) but I think it’s clear nobody in govt is capable of handling Brexit, it’s a complete shambles, and we should probably cancel it

It's the I'm all right jack world, that lead so many leavers to think what the heck. Let's have a massive change ..
By the way I agree with the person in the office...

Should also add, I don’t, and have never, thought Brexit was a way to achieve a more socialist society

There will be trade deals and companies won’t move.

I'll be overjoyed if things turn out ok but at the moment companies are moving or in talks to move & we have a trade deal with the Faroe Islands and Chile. Things look gloomy for the poor.

Personally I think young people are more global and open minded. Less insular.

I would like state intervention to take away wealth after a certain level

Snout at what level of wealth should the state intervene to remove it?

I'm scraping by on disability benefits in social housing, no longer able to work, scrutinised regularly by the DWP, demonised as a scrounger by the media and my mental health has gone to pot. I have a limited life but I wouldn't want any one to live like I do. I'm in a safe seat (both locally and nationally) with no hope of change. Does that make me disenfranchised?

Annie the damage with house prices was done in the early 2000s. The number of people affected by inequality have been growing for a while, but the inequality was stark before. The big difference now is that it's affecting the vocal middle classes. I agree about Brits not being lazy though. What's the point of busting our rears just to pay someone else's 4th or 5th mortgage - and then watch them give the house you paid for over 12 years to their own child while nicking your deposit when you finally leave (personal experience). A lot of that rhetoric, along with the rhetoric about lacking in skills, is to force yet lower wages on us for more work and skills.

There is cause for anger. But the op, and similar leavers, chose the wrong target. It is not Brussels that gave us right to buy and buy to let, nor reduced welfare and punitive benefit sanctions.

she is blaming the EU for what the Tories have done to this country

The Coalition and the Tories have managed that very comprehensively with narray a squeak from Brussels.

Yes. The Leave vote was a protest that hit out at the wrong bloody target.

dapplegrey I think there should be a maximum wage, people only allowed to own two properties and inheritance abolished. Stuff like that

We've had progressive taxation for a long time Dapple. Redistribution is a time-honoured way of redressing social balances, which otherwise swing way out of control, as Dickens was able to observe directly.

I agree that we would benefit from far more equality, but Brexit won't achieve that.

The British government could increase equality inside the EU, they have chosen not to.

Brexit will make our country poorer and imported goods more expensive, and that generally has a larger effect on poorer people, who have less leeway for increased prices and extra costs.

We've seen that Japan has negotiated a trade deal with the EU, and intends to negotiate a more advantageous (to Japan) deal with the UK. We are in a weaker negotiating position now so we will generally get less favourable deals.

There may be some isolated benefits for some groups eg less immigration for some jobs so less competition, but I think that will be outweighed by the harms.

I imagine house prices will fall which will benefit us personally, but I still think brexit is a very bad choice overall.

It could do weezol- do you feel disenfranchised?

Yes danger I agree house prices have been a problem for years. The results of Brexit grew over many years, not overnight.

Yes EU seems like the wrong target. But it’s hard now to distinguish left from right, overlord from landlord. (Labour are as much to blame for housing crisis as tories). The EU are part of the establishment who tell us how to live and how to think. It’s a bloody nose for the establishment - it doesn’t matter where that bloody nose landed)

It’s the same reason trump got elected - the drain the swamp argument - they all seem the same and they all ignore large swathes of the population.