Bringing everyone else down with me

[WordsAndWorlds]

One of my colleagues had a half hour rant today about wanting No Deal. She doesn't know which way I voted, and I was interested to hear her reasons so I bit my tongue, stayed very quiet and just listened. This is what she said...

She said that she has nothing to lose through Brexit and ND. She has spent 10 years working but never got into a job that pays enough for the quality of life she'd want- in fact, she's recently moved back in with her parents because after splitting with her partner, she can no longer afford rent alone. She says if she can survive in that living situation and on a low salary, the rest of the country can too for the greater good. We then need to work towards rebuilding the system so that everybody is on a more level playing field, housing more affordable, and a more middle ground standard of wages and types of housing rather than some particularly good and some far worse.

She says if she was a business owner and part of a group of companies where the others in the group were dictating what her company could and couldn't do at the expense of maximising profit and being true to their mission and values, there would be no question about leaving the group and going independent. So it should be exactly the same with the EU. It may be the case that ND is not a desirable outcome, but staying is unacceptable and nothing better has been put forward as a compromise so it HAS to be ND because that is democracy and it would be undemocratic not to leave.

She's entitled to her opinion.

Life would be very dull if we all had the same opinion. Nothing wrong with her having a different opinion to you. A bit off for you to deliberately keep your own opinion to yourself and then come here to bitch. Why not actually have a civilised discussion with her instead?

@Caselgarcia yes, of course she is...hence why I wanted to just listen and certainly didn't get into any kind of debate with her about it.

But I was surprised by the statement about wanting to level everyone out. I'm doing far less well than other people I know- but I have no desire to bring them to the same level as me to make things even.

She sounds like she would enjoy communism...

She wants a more fair society, that doesn't mean everyone having the same but more opportunities for people to do well for themselves. There's nothing wrong with that, and what she describes is certainly not communism! A lot of people voted for Brexit for similar reasons. Unfortunately they failed to realise that they are the people that will be worst hit by a no deal Brexit.

Our MPs are dictators... Won't be voting again.

North Korea might enjoy her company.

RangeRider "A bit off for you to deliberately keep your own opinion to yourself and then come here to bitch. "

When people talk politics at work, I never join in, too much potential trouble - especially with Brexit, which was discussed at work like nothing I've ever come across before.

OP, if she is saying she wants a more level playing field, I don't think I'd interpret that as her wanting to bring people down?

@Grace212 Exactly, I'm genuinely interested in other people's views, even when I completely oppose them - I actually posted this on here because I've seen loads of threads asking for a Leaver's perspective and not many post because they are scared. My colleague gave me hers very candidly...I don't agree with it. But at the same time, I respect her right to have it so there's no way I wanted an argument with her.

Re: not bringing other people down, the point she kept emphasising over and over was the line about "I've survived in my living situation with very little money and unable to afford property - others can too". In actual fact, I did ask her what if that meant people losing their homes or jobs and she said they'd survive just as she had and it would be for the greater good in the long run. She finished the whole conversation by saying that she did not wish that upon her own siblings (who do own property) though.

Some of her other points I found very interesting. She actually did express a deep persuasion towards communism, which makes sense and I can sort of get the logic of if the country was a blank slate. But the attitude of bringing everyone down to the same level of hardship in order to start again, I found much harder to get my head around.

How about losing social care, the NHS or libraries? Would that please her?

She has more to lose than she realises.

So, she appears to be dissatisfied with life and wants to flush everyone else down the loo with her.

@LittleSpace One of our other colleagues pointed out about the NHS, but she said it's a flawed system because you have to wait days for a Drs appointment or hours in A&E and independently from the EU we'd be free to create something far better. I've seen healthcare working in other countries and this attitude makes me sad as, even with all its flaws, we are so lucky compared to many others

She has been radicalised. She has so much to lose.

"She finished the whole conversation by saying that she did not wish that upon her own siblings (who do own property) though. "

ah, interesting. she's tackling it all from an emotional perspective, I guess, partly based on her own hardship.

maybe she's in a really bad place right now.

I consider myself very left-wing and would like to level the playing field of UK society to a much greater degree than I suspect most people here would be comfortable with, but Brexit is not the way to achieve that. Your colleague is going to be very disappointed.

I think you were sensible to stay well out of a debate in the workplace.

She actually did express a deep persuasion towards communism

And she thinks Teresa May, Gove,Jacob Rees Mogg etc will deliver that?

she said the NHS is a flawed system because you have to wait days for a Drs appointment or hours in A&E and independently from the EU we'd be free to create something far better

But the EU has never had any control or powers over our healthcare? Successive governments have been entirely free to do what they want with it.

A flawed system is better than no system?

The right wing of the Tory party don't need the NHS and don't want it as they deeply resent the amount it costs. If we are all brought down ( as looks likely) in the increased survival of the fittest environment the NHS will be an early casualty.

She needs to speak to a health professional. She's not well.

I guess a lot of people are unhappy with the way things are. The problem is that there isn't an obvious link between their proposed solution, Brexit, and their legitimate concerns.

@Neolara yes, that's how I felt too. She's actually quite a calm, reasonable person in general and listening to her I could understand where her frustrations and dissatisfaction were coming from, and could imagine that there are many others like her out there. But I cannot see how Brexit is the answer or link with that

I was surprised by the statement about wanting to level everyone out. I'm doing far less well than other people I know- but I have no desire to bring them to the same level as me to make things even.

And in fact the EU does the opposite to what she's saying – it levels things out by bringing poorer countries UP. The UK in the 80s; Poland just a few years ago.

if she was a business owner and part of a group of companies where the others in the group were dictating what her company could and couldn't do at the expense of maximising profit and being true to their mission and values, there would be no question about leaving the group and going independent.
Contrary to popular Brexiter rhetoric, we are NOT dictated to by the EU. Everyone gets a say and the UK is one of the most powerful voices in the union. Or was, until we blew it.

What strikes me as weird about all of that is that there is nothing stopping the UK doing what she says, Brexit or no Brexit. If people want a fairer society they need to vote for fairer policies.

I don't understand why people think it's got anything to do with the EU.

Really interesting thread OP, thanks. Very interesting to hear your colleagues views and her reasoning.

@DarlingNikita I've no wish to derail but just to emphasise what is and isn't right about what you posted. The idea that the EU has helped in "bringing countries up" may be true in some aspects, the statement that the EU "helped the UK" in such a way "levelling things out" in the 80s is demonstrably false, not least because the EU didn't exist before 1992.

Access to European markets was unquestionably helpful to some UK businesses in the 1980s. A common market and a single market are not the same thing, and the latter came into existence on 01/01/1993.

It’s a clear reflection of the fact that so many Politicians (and the media and business in some instances) have spent so many years blaming everything bad in the UK on Europe. The Leave vote was inevitable in that respect.

Your colleague is (misguidedly) thinking they the UK out of Europe will help the working men and women of this country: when the sad fact of the matter is that many of the workers rights we have now wouldn’t have existed without Europe. Don’t get me wrong it’s not perfect (zero hours contracts abuse etc) but it could be a hell of a lot worse.

I just worry who will be blamed in a few years when things are still crap (or crappier) for some people?

Thanks OP. You did good.
IMHO, your colleague is naive.

I am not too proud to take a job sorting potatoes. I just don't think most or even more people will be better off in long run if that becomes an average sort of job in short run.

funny how she wants the world to become a better place... except for her siblings who do have some wealth. They should be exempt from becoming worse off. Is that qualifying exemption -- if you have a "Nothing to Lose" sibling then your wealth is protected?