Irish border solution

[PerverseConverse]

Does anyone have one??

No matter how many times I go over brexit in my head, on here, with friends, in the news, on the internet, I can't figure out how on earth the Irish border issue is going to be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

Is there a solution (other than no brexit?)

Trouble is, to abide by WTO rules you need to have control of your trading area. So we need to have some sort of border control just as much as the EU does on the NI border. Unless we come up with something like, let's say, the Withdrawal Agreement, which gives both trading areas the time and space to work it out.
Doesn't have to be a hard border but both sides need to have control over their trading area.

If the EU then insist on there being one on the ROI side then that is an issue for ROI and EU to sort out between them. It is not the UK's problem to solve.

The UK are the ones who've caused the problem, not Ireland.

If the UK leaves with no deal and reverts to it's WTO rules then it HAS to have a border, the responsibility of the UK.

Another absolute myth peddled by the Project Fear merchants. The WTO themselves have confirmed there is no requirement in their rules to have a border of any sort....

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136

I just said you don't need a physical hard border but you need to have control of your trading area. If we crash out, neither side has control of their trading area at that point and needs to work something out. Hard border is the easy fix. WA makes it possible to work something out that isn't a hard border.
How is that Project Fear?

“What does require you to protect your border is protecting the integrity of your single market; it needs to be preserved. Ireland would be required by EU law to do so and it is in Ireland’s interests to do that. Ultimately, it is about protecting jobs.”

{He used the example where the UK might agree a deal with Brazil resulting in Irish beef farmers being confronted with tariff-free Brazilian beef imports to the UK across the Border in Northern Ireland.

“That beef could easily go across the Border without checks, you have an incentive to do so,” he said. }
From that article linked. It is not clear cut.

There seems to be an inherent contradiction in the fact that the brexit brigade who wanted to "take back control of our borders" now say there need not be a border on the island of Ireland, even if the UK leaves the EU and the Republic of Ireland remains in the EU.

Without a border not only goods but people could move freely into NI an from there to mainland Britain. How is that taking control of our borders?

"How is that taking control of our borders?"
There was the small print of "but also sticking it to Ireland " which didn't fit on the side of the fecking bus.

I was subjected to a long rant had a long conversation with the MD of one of my larger clients today about the Irish border. Apparently we should just refuse to do anything about it. I brought up the usual arguments but failed to convince him. In fact it's left me wondering if he might not have a point.

I think the border has always been accepted as the UK's problem, in reality though isn't it a problem equally shared between UK, ROI and the EU? They're as bound to sort it out as we are, and we'll (all) still be sorting it out even if we don't do it before the default no deal.

It seems to me that if we refuse to put up a border the very worst that could happen for now is that we'll probably be subject to WTO action in 18+ months, as would Ireland.

So in the event of no deal, if we just ignore the issue with the Irish border until after any WTO action, what happens next?

The EU would anyway insist on the Irish controlling goods coming into Ireland from NI so it will be left to them to sort out border controls on the Irish side of the wiggly non-border - and they'd just be facing the same impossible task as we are.

I can't really see beyond that at the moment. What would the consequences be?

At the risk of sounding like Basil Fawlty.. who started it? It's a border created by the UK. We cannot trade under WTO rules if we do not have control of our trading area. Doesn't mean we need a hard border there but that is the easiest solution in No Deal. For both sides of the UK border.
Tbe WA gave us breathing space to sort it out in terms of technology and WTO/GFA friendly processes.
Stop talking like a petulant child and accept your grown up responsibilities.

In the last 24 hours, the tone of the discussion around the border issue has changed.

EU spokesman Margaritis Schinas has come forward and stated that a hard border would be needed in a no deal situation. This comment was mirrored by the Irish PM, who added the caveat that it could be avoided if there were full alignment of both customs and regulations between the UK and the EU. And then Michel Barnier confirmed the same a few hours ago.

This was always known, btw, but the issue is so sensitive that those talking about it tiptoe around as if trying to cross a minefield.

It may help to reframe the problem to understand it more clearly: the Irish border issue is actually an "EU border problem". Namely, you have one EU country butting up against another non-EU country. And in every single case, either you have to have a whole slew of deals in place to erase the border (Norway, Switzerland), or you get a hard border.

In Ireland's case, you have the added complexity of the delicate nature of the peace process, the weight of history, etc. But it's still fundamentally another iteration of the "EU border problem". The fact that it's on the island of Ireland just makes it that much more vital that a sensible solution is found.

And that starts by being honest.

WTO is a complete red herring. It doesn't mention borders because borders aren't part of its remit, just like it doesn't mention knitting or golf. The fact that WTO is silent on the matter tells us nothing whatsoever.

When you dig into the legal situation of the EU, you quickly realise that a hard border isn't some optional, will-they-won't-they thing, but an absolute cast iron necessity.

It's healthy that politicians are starting to admit that truth, albeit with the greatest of reluctance. Because it's only after everyone understands the stakes that the real dialogue can begin, on actually solving the problem.

You know all those people in Calais wanting to go to the UK and hiding in trucks etc. can they all just be given boat and train tickets to Rosslare and then across the land border the UK won’t police?

I said that pre referendum @Inniu and got called all sorts on here.

Inniu
I asked the same question too.
People wishing to enter UK can / will do so via Ireland and then Northern Ireland.
No border checks.

@Imnotswallowingthat That article you posted explains why the UK WOULD need a hard border. Check the comments about Argentinian beef.

What would the consequences be?

if the purpose of leaving the EU was indeed to take back control of our borders, it does seem a tad odd to refuse to, well, take control of our border.

Almost as if there was no point to the whole blessed exercise.

Almost as if there was no point to the whole blessed exercise.

Well there is that!

Exactly, so let's just see sense and bin brexit.

I thought all the same things as the rest of you who mentioned free movement of people over the EU/UK border. But then I thought in the event of no deal, a lot of people might decide they don't actually want to go to the UK. The link below gives figures that show the number of EU citizens choosing to come to the UK is falling. So perhaps the no of refugees or economic migrants from non EU countries trying to get to the UK might also fall.

fullfact.org/immigration/eu-citizens-brexodus/

From reading this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/The_hardest_border
I don't think there can be & there should not be a hard border.

Write to your MP?

To those thinking the UK can just say "we're not putting up a border, not our problem" - a couple of points.

Brexit is your mess, you need to sort it out.
Let's say UK leaves with no deal and don't impose a border (I'm not sure how long you'll be able to do that under WTO but anyway...)

The Irish Govt won't impose a border because...

1. It's impossible to do so.
2. To do so would be in breach of the Good Friday Agreement
3. They're trying to protect NI and the rest of the UK! from Republican bombs and bullets.
4. They won't cut off their citizens in the North from the rest of their country.
5. They don't want to destroy businesses in the NI and Ireland, particularly along the border.

If the UK say to Ireland, all of the above is your problem Ireland, as far as I can see, have limited choices.
Ignore the border too but be the weak link in the EU SM and CU. Probably start getting heavy fines if not kicked out of the SM and CU themselves.
Move the EU border to Frances/Netherlands etc cutting off Ireland from the rest of the EU causing untold economic damage.

Are you telling me that the UK would be ok with causing such damage to what is suppose to be a friendly ally?

And let's say the UK don't give a s*it about Ireland or the damage caused. What the UK going to do, operate on WTO terms forever?
What do you think will happen when you go to the EU asking for a trade deal?
What do you think will happen if you go the US asking for a trade deal - around 35 million Americans claim Irish heritage, the Irish American lobby has still alot of influence. I suspect they won't like anything threatening the Good Friday Agreement they helped broker.

I can't imagine there will be too many other serious countries who would react well to the above. The UK would be an international outcast overnight.

Would this diagram help people visualise the Irish border problem?

Can I just say to those in NI and ROI that some of us do care very much and hate this mess as much as you and did not want brexit. Please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Can I just say to those in NI and ROI that some of us do care very much and hate this mess as much as you and did not want brexit. Please don't tar us all with the same brush

As someone living in a border county I want to say I very much appreciate that.

@Feduppluckingmychinhairs I'm glad. I feel like living in England I am guilty by association. I didn't vote for the tories and I voted remain. I see all too clearly the problems and am very anxious as to how things will play out. I pray for sense to prevail and the whole sorry mess to be abandoned and confined to history as temporary insanity.