MNHQ here: should we support a Citizens Assembly as a way of breaking a Brexit deadlock?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

We've been asked whether Mumsnet would support the idea of a Citizens Assembly to try to bridge the divide within the UK electorate over what should happen next with Brexit, and address what's looking like a deadlock in Parliament .

Current polling seems to suggest no majority in the country at large for any one Brexit outcome, from May's deal to a second referendum to no deal. (Here are YouGov's figures on May's deal from a few days ago and here's another set of YouGov figures appearing to show that no current proposal has majority support). Inasmuch as anyone knows anything, the conventional wisdom seems to be that there's also no majority in Parliament for any of the possible ways forward.

Citizen's Assemblies aim to be neutral forums for participative decision-making. (You can see the Wikipedia definition here.)

The Republic of Ireland set up a Citizens Assembly as part of the process that resulted in the repeal of the 8th Amendment to the Irish constitution, contributing to the recent referendum decision to change Ireland's abortion laws.

For Brexit, the proposal is that an assembly of 500 citizens (from a longlist of 10,000 people drawn from the electoral register) would be randomly selected by a polling organisation to be demographically representative of the UK electorate. The Electoral Commission would facilitate the process, and a non-voting Chairperson would call experts to give evidence from a variety of perspectives. The aim is that the Assembly would take place within the space of a week towards the end of 2018 or the beginning of 2019, and that its recommendations would be passed to Parliament for a vote.

A previous Citizens Assembly on Brexit was held in 2017: you can see the summary report of its recommendations here.

We'd be interested to know whether you think this is something MN should support - please let us know what you think (and if you're an expert on constitutional conventions please feel free to contribute )

Thanks
MNHQ

People are still missing the point. There is no need for a debate as there are only 3 choices, Leave hard (crash/accidental), WA as printed or remain.
Only a combination of HoC/Cabinet/Mrs May can make this decision.
People have marched (700,000 for remain), (3,000 Brexit betrayal) and some random shouting by people who have no defined, workable plans.

I’d imagine Mumsnet has a majority of female members, a lower than average typical age, and probably a higher number of graduate/a,b,c1.
So an equivalent number of organisations that represent other groups must also asked to support & promote the idea in order for it to be representative.
Is that possible?

I think it’s a great idea.

So this people’s assembly decides to remain/accept TM’s deal/crash out, its decision is binding?

Are people genuinely naive enough to think you can put 500 inexperienced randoms in a room and they’ll simply apply a little bit of common sense and sort out Brexit in a matter a few days/weeks?

Sorry but what exactly is new about this?

Arron Banks, Mogg, BJ, Trump, Clintons, Blair not to mention Murdock Black, and various other media owners over the decades "it was the SUN that won it" all very democratic and above board..not.

Because none of them have openly sought to create an assembly which sought to subvert a democratically elected parliament.

And if it happens once, it can happen again. You might be happy about it now, because you know it will probably lead to a decision you want.

But what if there is a decision you don’t like? Imagine Jeremy Corbyn is elected and wants a radical package of renationalisation and heavy business taxes to pay for new social housing. But he struggles to get it through parliament because soft left Labour MPs are worried about the impact on the economy. So Rupert Murdoch sets up an assembly of 500 people, selected by him, floods them with pro capitalist free market propaganda, calls them a Citizen’s Assembly and demands parliament takes orders from the unelected assembly he created? If not that, think of another policy you like which is controversial.

If you accept that parliament should follow orders from an unelected assembly created by George Soros, how are you going to argue that it shouldn’t do the same for Richard Murdoch or Arron Banks or anybody else who has a bit of cash?

You can’t argue that one should be allowed because you think think they’re wrong. Because the whole point of a democracy is that it follows the wishes of the majority. So right or wrong is subject to that.

Basically it would be flushing the entire idea of democracy down the toilet.

I’d imagine Mumsnet has a majority of female members, a lower than average typical age, and probably a higher number of graduate/a,b,c1.
So an equivalent number of organisations that represent other groups must also asked to support & promote the idea in order for it to be representative.
Is that possible?

This will be exactly because those profiles are the most likely to vote remain. So obviously that’s why they’re targeting Mumsnet. So they can stuff it with people who will give the answers they want.

No. It is a terrifyingly undemocratic suggestion. Politics is the art of compromise, working through conflict. Democratic politics in a representative democracy means working them through via a democratically elected assembly, in this case Parliament. Not through random people.

This won’t happen, for good reason, but you risk damaging the Mumsnet brand by aligning yourself with such a silly suggestion. Parliamentary democracy, representative democracy, matters. How can undermining it in any way, in times when we’ve seen in the US and Russia where this can lead, possibly be a good thing?

I would ask myself some serious suggestions about why Stella Creasy, instead of engaging in proper politics, is wasting her time on this. This is about her profile.

Run, run, from this ghastly suggestion.

On previous occasions people who criticised Stella on MN have been banned.

I have noted many posting in online news comments calling for an end to democracy.

vorpent

I dont think anyone's saying we wouldn't take the assembly's findings back to parliament for debate.

You seriously think MPs are going to say “well, I was a hard brexiteer determined to vote against.... but this group of 500 randoms have converted me! They have been so much more convincing than any of my consistuents, my local party members, focus groups, other MPs, the media, experts over the past two years!”

While the Leavers have democratically voted to make themselves (and everyone else) poorer, I would prefer to be left out of this shitstorm.

And if it happens once, it can happen again. You might be happy about it now, because you know it will probably lead to a decision you want

Assume you mean an assembly?

No, i said up thread that this assembly is very wrong and that Parliament should decide.

As for funding, the money given to Leave has been given to the NCA to investigate on its source.

If this turns out to be illegal or from overseas sources, that is very much undermining democracy but as it helped Leave win, thats all ok because its what you want.

mattFreisCheekyDimples that is a very interesting point you make, that affluence allows access to education and information that permits reasoned analysis and decision making. It is not one that is often openly made nowadays.

If this assembly idea went ahead (which I hope it doesn’t) would you for this reason support restricting membership to individuals with a certain level of affluence/education? To ensure reasoned analysis?

I think we used to do something similar in the UK, with Parliamentary elections, for exactly the reason you describe, before some big electoral reform in the 1840s or something. Something about universal suffrage? About the rights of people (even the unaffluent and uneducated and possibly irrational taxi driver) to have their say?

Honestly matt are you Boris Johnson in disguise, trying to discredit the Remain camp? Because if you are, you’re doing a great job. Farage could print your words on leaflets to attract support! Really, seriously, he could, so if you are genuinely a remainder I’d have a hard think about whether you might best help your cause by being a little discreet about your views.

An assembly like this would be like a large parish council. Or a jury. With lots of people who haven’t got a clue and loudmouths getting more than fair share of influence.

It would be The Vicar of Dibley does Brexit.

{It would be The Vicar of Dibley does Brexit.}
Bit like the HoC but cheaper.

morality, I’ve seen that too.

Worse than that, I’ve seen British people calling for Remain along with a punishment for the UK and big concessions to the EU.

They’re suggesting that an electorate be punished for giving the wrong answer to a referendum.

This kind of stuff is just so sinister and wrong and they think they’re the benevolent good guys. But the problem is, oppressive people always think they’re right and they’re the good guys. Nazis, Stalinists, the Spanish Inquisition - they didn’t cackle wickedly about how they had an evil plan. They all thought that they were right and doing good. Leading German’s out of poverty, protecting citizens from Capitalism or saving people’s souls.

Whenever you end up with people who are so convinced they are right that their wishes should be imposed at all costs, it is dangerous.

@ile The vicar of Dibley doing Brexit.

'N-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-no DEAL'

{Worse than that, I’ve seen British people calling for Remain along with a punishment for the UK and big concessions to the EU. }

Not sure if you are referring to me but the UK government (leave canpaign) have effectively smashed up the next door neighbours garage and greenhouse by saying it wants to leave. Of course it should pay for the damage caused.
If I came and ripped up your garden you would expect it to be put back to how it was.

mattFreisCheekyDimples that is a very interesting point you make, that affluence allows access to education and information that permits reasoned analysis and decision making. It is not one that is often openly made nowadays.

I think you have mistaken my point, Victoria. I was actually responding to Augusta, who was ranting along the lines that the correlation between affluence and voting Remain was some kind of plot to disenfranchise the working class. I was trying to explain why there might be a statistical relationship between the two, assuming that Augusta's point was even true, which I'm not entirely convinced of tbh.

fwiw, I don't think it's remotely controversial to suggest that the EU question was one of great detail and complexity that ought not to have put to a referendum vote. Nor is it controversial to say that much of what drove people to vote Leave was rooted in ignorance and misinformation. I read (here) the other day that the most googled question in the UK the day after the referendum was "What is the EU?" I think that sums up the problem really.

All of which is not to say that we should not look and listen carefully at why large parts of British society were so susceptible to the false prospectus of the Leave campaign.

I think we're digressing greatly from the question of a citizen's assembly though, which, as I said upthread, I think is a bad idea. I think it's an interesting concept for other, less do-or-die business at the level of local politics though, assuming accountability etc.

I think that MN should NOT start getting involved in this kind of politics. Campaigns on issues such as domestic violence - yes. Politics - no way.

No Mumsnet. This is outwith your remit. Don't get involved.

THInk people too divided. People would assume someth8ng manipulated. Everyone vote or throw a dice

George Soros wants the EU to have a common fiscal policy so that it can borrow money... from him.

He actually wrote an article in the Guardian declaring exactly that.

I like the idea of replacing government with randomly selected juries to vote on policy, so this idea seemed appealing, but not if it's just another rich man trying to buy his way to additional wealth.

"replacing government with randomly selected juries to vote on policy"

What, you want more Brexit referenda?

Everyone needs to have another look at what would constitute 'representative' in Britain, as iLevictoi explained on page 3, and bear in mind that we have a culture that despises education and information. And Victoria, I have wondered about Stella Creasey several times. Seems a typical middle class airhead who has never stuck her pampered nose out of her own social circle.

No