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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ here: should we support a Citizens Assembly as a way of breaking a Brexit deadlock?

250 replies

RowanMumsnet · 10/12/2018 10:39

Hello

We've been asked whether Mumsnet would support the idea of a Citizens Assembly to try to bridge the divide within the UK electorate over what should happen next with Brexit, and address what's looking like a deadlock in Parliament .

Current polling seems to suggest no majority in the country at large for any one Brexit outcome, from May's deal to a second referendum to no deal. (Here are YouGov's figures on May's deal from a few days ago and here's another set of YouGov figures appearing to show that no current proposal has majority support). Inasmuch as anyone knows anything, the conventional wisdom seems to be that there's also no majority in Parliament for any of the possible ways forward.

Citizen's Assemblies aim to be neutral forums for participative decision-making. (You can see the Wikipedia definition here.)

The Republic of Ireland set up a Citizens Assembly as part of the process that resulted in the repeal of the 8th Amendment to the Irish constitution, contributing to the recent referendum decision to change Ireland's abortion laws.

For Brexit, the proposal is that an assembly of 500 citizens (from a longlist of 10,000 people drawn from the electoral register) would be randomly selected by a polling organisation to be demographically representative of the UK electorate. The Electoral Commission would facilitate the process, and a non-voting Chairperson would call experts to give evidence from a variety of perspectives. The aim is that the Assembly would take place within the space of a week towards the end of 2018 or the beginning of 2019, and that its recommendations would be passed to Parliament for a vote.

A previous Citizens Assembly on Brexit was held in 2017: you can see the summary report of its recommendations here.

We'd be interested to know whether you think this is something MN should support - please let us know what you think (and if you're an expert on constitutional conventions please feel free to contribute Grin)

Thanks
MNHQ

OP posts:
MyNameIsArthur · 10/12/2018 20:38

Two years ago Theresa May should have allowed cross party involvement in dealing with Brexit. I think we wouldn't have all the fiasco we have now if this had happened

LuluJakey1 · 10/12/2018 20:56

500 people is nothing. We had a democratic vote and the majority 17,000,000+ voted to leave the EU.
It is a mess because :
a) Many people voted and were ill-informed at the time
b) The politicians had no idea how they would make it happen- and still don't
c) No one has looked at why those 17,000,000 who voted Leave did so. Many of the areas of high Leave votes are the poorest areas of the country with high levels of unemployment, worklessness and deprivation. Many have never recovered from the damage Thatcher did- I live in the north-east which is one of those. The fact that politicians were so shocked by the vote to Leave shows how little they actually understand their constituents and they have shown no desire to understand their disenfranchisement since that vote.

I can't see the point of a Citizens' Assembly. What would the other raft of ideas alongside it be? Would they be robust? Listened to?

I am with Danny Dyer on Cameron- he caused this and slinked off to put his trotters up when he had done the damage.

1tisILeClerc · 10/12/2018 20:59

Myname
That would have been good, but infinitely better would have been not to start A50 until a properly worked out and funded plan had been drawn up. Rather than rubbishing 'experts' and yelling 'project fear' just make even 'back of fag packet' estimates and then discuss the findings within government and HoC and say, to leave will cost XXX Billion and if we can't maintain the environment for continued trade AS IT EXISTS (CU and SM) the risk of manufacturing leaving is high.
At that point go for A50 if wanted although the true costs and implications would probably scare the crap out of most.

tomhazard · 10/12/2018 21:02

I think this sounds sensible under the current circumstances

shartsi · 10/12/2018 21:03

No

MyNameIsArthur · 10/12/2018 21:12

infinitely better would have been not to start A50 until a properly worked out and funded plan had been drawn up

I agree 1tisILeClerc

MattFreisCheekyDimples · 10/12/2018 21:13

Augusta

It’s not ‘a fact’ that Thatcher was completely responsible for the decline in manufacturing. In fact it arguably declined more under New Labour than under her.

So not the EU's fault then, in fact.

In 2016, unemployment was around 5%. Around half a million of that number are long term unemployed. So even if every single one of them voted Leave (and many may be EU citizens not eligible to vote) that still leaves almost 17 million votes unaccounted for.

Entrenched worklessness and hopelessness, such as that that results from pit and shipyard closures and the extinction of whole industries, hollows out entire communities - economically, socially, culturally, educationally. That phenomenon affects more than just those individuals who literally speaking are long-term unemployed. Add to that the privileging in postmodernity of the concerns of big business, and the result is whole swathes of society who are dislocated from any sense of social or economic agency. People in that position are very vulnerable to the lure of the charismatic leader with easy answers and attractive slogans.

The EU’s ‘propping up’ of deprived areas frequently benefits those who are making a profit or parachuted in public sector managers and locals often feel it only offers a few badly paid jobs with little opportunity for them.

Wales no longer agrees with you. Neither does Cornwall.

Again, you are assuming that working class and lower middle class people were too stupid to know what they were voting for

I think under the right circumstances we could all have been susceptible to the silver tongue of Farage et al. It's not about stupidity.

and that their voice should be ignored because other people (like you) know better than they do themselves what they really want, so they should just shut up and do as they’re told.

On the contrary, precisely because the Leave vote was driven by structural inequalities rather than 'stupidity', I think those voices should be listened to carefully, so as to understand them better, just as the pp suggested. You're the one who would rather skip that bit and head straight for economic oblivion.

And you’re left wing. It’s an absolute disgrace this sort of thing is coming out of the left wing. It’s absolutely divorced from the original purpose of the left which championed the rights of the working class to participate in politics and decried the sort of people who claimed the working classes were too thick and ill educated to participate in politics.

That's a lot of assumptions about me. I am left wing, yes. I am also - if you force me to pick a unitary identity from the midst of an extremely complicated personal history - working class. My interest in politics derives from my trade union activities as a young adult. I am able to participate in political debate because it interests me sufficiently that I follow and understand it. I don't rely on the Daily Mail or London taxi drivers - or Mumsnet - for my information. I don't pluck buzzwords from the ether and pretend they're my original thoughts. I form my own opinions and on that basis I feel entitled to vote. I'm not accusing anyone of being 'thick and ill educated' who can be bothered to do the same.

The left wing now is just an elitist playground for posturing bourgeoisie to play at student politics.

I don't recognise this. In fact it sounds like posturing to me.

UnnecessaryFennel · 10/12/2018 21:14

Terrible idea, and appallingly disingenuous of MN to suggest it, when they've been busy squirreling away any and all Brexit threads for months and months.

And now suddenly you decide it's important enough to sticky at the top of all topics? I don't fucking think so.

Augusta2012 · 10/12/2018 21:23

So not the EU's fault then, in fact.

I never said it was. I didn’t even mention manufacturing. You, on the other hand, are still blaming all the UKs problems on a woman who left office almost 30 years ago, even though many of the problems you’ve named worsened under the 13 years of Labour government. If you genuinely think that Labour were completely incapable of doing anything to reverse that in 13 years, then why on earth would we want to vote for them? That would clearly make them bumbling incompetents who couldn’t achieve anything even with a huge parliamentary majority.

I don’t care if you claim to be working class, you clearly view the rest of the working class with complete contempt. “London taxi drivers and the Daily Mail”? Just nasty, snobby stereotypes.

ShovingLeopard · 10/12/2018 21:24

It's a big no from me, for the reasons pp have mentioned. The 2016 vote showed this kind of decision cannot be left to randoms off the street, no matter how 'representative' they might be.

lottelupin · 10/12/2018 21:31

The first step can only be a second referendum. There should be a minimum margin on such an extraordinarily important decision, and the first referendum couldn't possibly stand as there was no real information to vote on.

If the PM is so certain this is 'the people's mandate', then what's the harm in a second referendum to confirm it?

We all know the second vote would kill Brexit. It's a shameful mess and deeply embarrassing internationally. Our government and politics has shown itself up as shambolic. The sooner this madness is stopped, the better.

Fairylightfurore · 10/12/2018 21:37

I think it's a good idea.

MissEliza · 10/12/2018 22:02

It's a ridiculous suggestion

BirdseyeFrozen · 10/12/2018 22:11

No to any group which is not democratically elected and therefore unaccountable, for reasons already given in the thread.

KataraJean · 10/12/2018 22:20

But was it not the case that article 50 had to be triggered before negotiations with the EU could begin? Am I wrong on that?

To the OP, I agree that we have an elected assembly already in place, who are finely attuned to the views of their constituents, I would hope, and making their voting decisions with all the available information. I honestly do not think 500 fandoms is going to come up with something no-one in Whitehall or Westminster has thought of.

I think this is a distraction, and the fact is that Brexit is so divisive, it is not going to be possible to broker a solution everyone is happy with in four months time. Less than that. We need a solution which does the minimum damage economically, politically and socially, and the will of MPs, civil servants and the government to work together to implement it. Until they agree what that solution looks like, and it is agreed with the EU, then it is an intractable problem.

KataraJean · 10/12/2018 22:21

fandoms = randoms

1tisILeClerc · 10/12/2018 22:33

{We need a solution which does the minimum damage economically, politically and socially, and the will of MPs, civil servants and the government to work together to implement it. Until they agree what that solution looks like, and it is agreed with the EU, then it is an intractable problem.}

Yes it's called the Withdrawal Agreement, it's about 585 pages long.
While nobody likes it, it is designed so it won't trash the EU OR the UK as it stands and allows some form of continuation while the 'proper' agreements are made.
It is the ONLY 'deal' that the EU will accept, however revoking A50 and remaining fully, or a completely disastrous 'crash out' are 2 alternatives.

Oakenbeach · 10/12/2018 23:05

Dreadful idea.... why would 100 randomly chosen citizens be expected to do a better job!? If we are to put it to the people it needs to be via a referendum or general election

Biscuitless · 10/12/2018 23:09

A terrible idea. So many possibilities to rig the selection process (see eg BBC question time) and undemocratic to entrust such an important question to so few. Everyone should have another vote. And there’s no time to waste on further gimmicks.

Tories should have done focus groups before triggering Article 50. There is no place for this now. Please don’t support this mumsnet. If you support anything it should in my view be another vote but if that would be too political then this should be viewed in the same light.

bpisok · 10/12/2018 23:12

Absolutely NOT. What you are proposing is NOT a democracy but is instead a lottery.
The referendum was decided without appropriate impact assessments or any indication of what it means. Now we know, and if the parliament are unable to reach a consensus, then it clearly needs to go back to a democratic vote. It doesn't need to go to a 'randomly selected' number of people!!!

Zevitevitchofcwsmas · 10/12/2018 23:13

My name is Arthur. I couldn't agree more. So much valuable time has been wasted trying to derail brexit, faffing about with corbyn and does he doesn't he want brexit m.. Rather than simply all pulling together to get the best for us.

bpisok · 10/12/2018 23:27

I didn't read the other posts before I posted because I was so horrified by the proposal however currently I make it 4 votes vs 145 'it's a terrible idea' votes (excluding my posts)

So Mumsnet, this is the first time that a MASSIVE consensus has been reached on any Brexit issue.

We need a resounding hand of applause 👏👏👏

Oakenbeach · 10/12/2018 23:29

Do people who support this genuinely believe the country would loyally rally behind the decisions of the randomly chosen 500?! Hmm

bpisok · 10/12/2018 23:35

Exactly- if so go for the "lets leave it to a 500 people to decide' suggestion, why don't we just go the whole hog and toss a coin?

....oh yeah, we would have to decide whether it was 1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p, £1 or £2 coin. And who would toss it?

I vote 10p Smile

SwedishEdith · 10/12/2018 23:42

Terrible idea, and appallingly disingenuous of MN to suggest it, when they've been busy squirreling away any and all Brexit threads for months and months.

Agree. And also did nothing about the obvious suspect posters who appeared before ref posting blatant Leave propaganda.

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