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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 10:20

Sean O'Grady in the Independent thinks that the Government does not want to publish the legal advice because it will prove that they entered into the Withdrawal Agreement in bad faith.

If that were to be shown to be demonstrably true, could it have any further bearing on the WA as Barnier sees it ? I can't see any great appetite officially in the EU to abandon it. But there might be internal pressures to assert themselves a bit and insist on even more Rees-Mogg cornflake-choking conditions ?

It would certainly give all those countries (whose names escape me at the moment) that were mobbing Theresa May at the G20 an edge in further negotiations ?

ElenadeClermont · 05/12/2018 10:21

lonelyplanetmum Sean O'Grady wondered if the legal advice mainly concerns how we could unilaterally walk away from the Withdrawal Agreement. That we signed it with our fingers crossed. www.independent.co.uk/voices/contempt-parliament-brexit-uk-government-theresa-may-legal-advice-attorney-general-a8667296.html

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 05/12/2018 10:24

Don't be optimistic too soon

I did say a little more optimistic Big Choc and surely that’s valid? It’s not full-blown ‘everything’s ok now’ optimism. Actually SocraticCat pretty much summed up my optimism levels when she/he posted this:

I can't believe that I'm feeling relieved and more optimistic, not because we're going to remain in the EU (those days are gone, I think), not even because we've avoided crashing out completely, but because the probability of complete disaster is slightly less today than it was yesterday.

Gotta grab your optimism where you can these days.

Has anyone been looking at the thread about whether people think Brexit would happen? I have to share this funny and spot-on analogy from a poster called MedicinalGin.

We look like such a shower of clowns, I mean honestly.

It’s like we’ve all been to the EU pub, decided to leave in a massive huff and then got stuck in the doors and we are so pissed we are fighting with our own reflection in the mirrored windows.

The other countries are just looking on, going 👀 😬🤦‍♀️ and wondering if we’ll make it outside onto the kerb before we vomit all down ourselves.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2018 10:24

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e90472e2-f81b-11e8-a7ad-f292e75f50c3
Brexit poll shows growing number believe Leave vote was a mistake

More people think that Britain was wrong to vote to leave the European Union than previously recorded, a YouGov poll for The Times reveals.

It found that 49 per cent thought Britain was wrong to vote to leave, the highest figure to date, while 38 per cent believed that Britain was right to choose to leave, a new low. This 11-point gap is the largest YouGov has had for the wrong decision having been made.

OP posts:
lonelyplanetmum · 05/12/2018 10:25

That would be about right on our recent past form.

Perhaps the phrase ' an Englishman's word is his bond was always spin.'

After all if it were true there'd be no need to say it.

HesterThrale · 05/12/2018 10:28

Yes DGR you may be right. I was being a bit tongue in cheek about the 21 days deadline. Who knows the rules?... we’re in uncharted waters!
Whatever transpires, it will be a frantic festive period.
That’s what you get for leaving everything till the last minute.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 10:30

Brexit poll shows growing number believe Leave vote was a mistake

Not sure why. We haven't left yet Grin ...

ElenadeClermont · 05/12/2018 10:33

That pub analogy is classic. Thank you for sharing. Grin

HesterThrale · 05/12/2018 10:33

Some 11 per cent of people who voted to leave in 2016 now think that the country made the incorrect decision, up from 8 per cent in mid-November.

Slowly, slowly...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e90472e2-f81b-11e8-a7ad-f292e75f50c3

puttingthegenieback · 05/12/2018 10:43

Yes exactly lonelyplanetmum. Thuggish words and tactics. The Tories continue to disgust me more every day if that's even possible.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 10:49

BBC seems to have got the Brexit wind back in it's sails.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46450227

There is a risk MPs could "steal Brexit from the British people" if Theresa May's proposed deal is rejected, a senior cabinet minister has warned.

(contd)

It's their lead story.

puttingthegenieback · 05/12/2018 10:50

Does anyone else remember how proud Theresa May was of the fact that Ken Clarke apparently once called her a "bloody difficult woman"? The qualities to which he was referring are now on display for the world to see, and I really don't think they are anything to be proud of....
I am astounded that based on this morning's media offensive, she continues to think that she can threaten and strong-arm her WA through Parliament.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 10:51

Living in a country where the government can "forget" a billion pound VAT charge and nobody thinks it unusual, a few days here or there over "21" is small beer. Although I have already bid on "fortnight and a half" on adwords, just in case.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 10:52

Does anyone else remember how proud Theresa May was of the fact that Ken Clarke apparently once called her a "bloody difficult woman"?

I thought that was Mrs T ?

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 10:56

I am astounded that based on this morning's media offensive, she continues to think that she can threaten and strong-arm her WA through Parliament.

Really, what else can she do ?

puttingthegenieback · 05/12/2018 10:59

DGR it was Treeza: www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/05/ken-clarke-caught-camera-ridiculing-tory-leadership-candidates-theresa-may-michael-gove

You are right that she really has no other options at this point re the WA.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 11:10

Sorry, getting my right wing handbag wielders mixed up.

lettuceWrap · 05/12/2018 11:18

Feeling a little more hopeful that this whole sorry Brexit mess can just be made to disappear 🤞🏼🤞🏼

1tisILeClerc · 05/12/2018 11:19

{I see a fundamental difference between accidental and deliberate no deal on two counts. }
In this particular 'game' there are no accidents, a lot of (arguably) overpaid people are putting a lot of work into this. OK it looks like around 700 or more people (HoC etc) are trying to escape Theresa's stink bomb but there are some serious directions of travel afoot.
Is there continuing evidence that the EU wants the UK to stay? After all, they have spent shitloads of money making preparations for the UK leaving so I can imagine a lot of resentment in the EU if there is no compensation by the UK for the effort and upheaval.
While a 'good deal' is essential, I am not sure that 'Remain' is best.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 11:22

Is there continuing evidence that the EU wants the UK to stay?

I think the EU is pragmatically acknowledging that for now the UK is a member, so if there were to be some Dr. Who-esque time vortex, that's the default position.

I suspect quite a few people who only access the news .... intermittently ... are under the impression that it's all done now.

MangoSplit · 05/12/2018 11:25

Place marking

Hazardswan · 05/12/2018 11:29

Enjoying the little optimism.

And still enthusiastic for no brexit

Place 🙋👑

prettybird · 05/12/2018 11:52

Fuckin train driver supposedly representing the "voice of the people" in Edinburgh on Sky News is blatantly lying Angry

He's going through all the unicorns, they'll still sell to us, nothing will change, the people have spoken and don't need to speak again arguments.

But the lies which resulted in dh telling me to calm down while I swore at the TV were that he was claiming that Scotland had known that EU membership was "in the mix" when we voted in 2014, so we voted knowing that the UK might leave in the future. That. Is. A. Fucking. Lie. Angry We were told that the only way we could guarantee our continued membership of the EU was if we voted No. This was a large part of the Project Fear campaign (as the No Campaign happily called itself oh the irony Hmm) I realised the risk - and had a big (respectful Wink) argument with a pro-EU friend (well informed, intelligent) who was going to and did vote No because of the risk to Scotland's membership of the EU. I told her the far greater risk to EU membership was Scotland's continued participation in the UK - and she promised me that if that came to pass, she would then campaign for Independence (and she has followed through on that since the EU Referendum Smile).

The fucker on Sky news then went on to accuse the SNP of hypocrisy because in 1973 they had campaigned against joining the EEC Confused So on the one hand he says it's ok for the people to change their minds between 1975 and 2016 (but not afterwards) but not for the SNP to have changed their minds Confused

Fucking hypocrite as well as a lier. Angry

The SNP is a very different party to the young party of the 70s. For one thing it was right of centre back then whereas it has been very definitely left of centre for c20 years! Confused It is acquired many disaffected former Labour voters (my mum when she was alive , my dad and me for example)

And breeeaaathe while I plaice mat king Wink

mybrainhurtsalot · 05/12/2018 11:53

Lonely, rumours this is drug related (though most likely paramilitary vigilantes meting out the punishment)

www.belfastdaily.co.uk/2018/12/04/revealed-wealthy-drug-dealer-jim-donegan-shot-dead-in-west-belfast/jim-donegan-house/

Nothing new sadly though perhaps someone who is living in NI (I moved away quite some time ago) can comment on whether it is getting worse or not:
m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dozen-death-threats-each-week-from-dissident-vigilante-gangs-in-northern-ireland-34643046.html

HesterThrale · 05/12/2018 11:59

The Express finally realising there maybe downsides to Brexit:

Brexit news: How healthcare and the NHS will suffer, deal or no deal

They quote this report:

The report, titled “The NHS and Health Law Post Brexit: Views from Stakeholders and the Devolved Jurisdictions” was released on Tuesday, and is made up of research and evidence from interviews around the UK. Concerns about the future of health care include staffing, shortage of medicines, public health, research and funding. Most worryingly, it appears devolved nations - Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales - might be the worst hit.

Interesting quotes:

PUBLIC HEALTH
There are concerns about public health measures, such as combatting smoking, once the UK leaves the EU.
There are worries that, once the UK is no longer under EU regulation, commercial considerations may hold more influence.

SCRUTINY
The EU is involved in a range of vigilance systems that scrutinise health professionals, pharmaceuticals, medical devices, blood and tissue.
These measures facilitate the protection of patient safety, but may be at risk after Brexit.
Professor Hervey pointed out these dropped scrutiny measures could result in either “mistakes happening inadvertently” or “more powerful interests able to secure advantages” while the UK adjusts to the post-Brexit landscape.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1054348/brexit-news-healthcare-nhs-will-suffer-deal-no-deal/amp