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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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UnnecessaryFennel · 05/12/2018 07:16

PMK

Thanks red; these threads are an essential public service imo

frumpety · 05/12/2018 07:16

So we have Mays WA which has been compared with Turkeys EU arrangement , Norway +(if the EU feel inclined to agree to it ) , no deal ( accidental or forced ) or revoking Art 50, Hmm, now what would a sensible person with the best interests of the UK and its entire population do ?

Going to join 2bees in the bookies tomorrow Grin

Flowers for red as it is a teensy bit early for gin, even in these 'interesting times' Wink

GardenOfSeeds · 05/12/2018 07:31

You can suss out how things are in your area without the distraction of having to feed everyone. You may want to do more. That's up to you and there's loads of advice on the Prepper topic.

Thankfully I have three days.

What are we to suss out in the area, 50 year old red faced men?

SocraticCat · 05/12/2018 07:38

Just delurking with a place mat king and a huge thanks to everyone who has posted on these threads, especially Red. I've been following from the very beginning.

Thanks for the thread summary - I ended yesterday exhausted but completely confused about what any of it actually meant. But I think you're saying that it hasn't definitely changed anything, but it has shifted the probabilities about what might occur next - specifically less chance of an unexpected No Deal.

I can't believe that I'm feeling relieved and more optimistic, not because we're going to remain in the EU (those days are gone, I think), not even because we've avoided crashing out completely, but because the probability of complete disaster is slightly less today than it was yesterday.

Gotta grab your optimism where you can these days.

bellinisurge · 05/12/2018 07:38

Suss out food supply. Suss out any noisy knobheads at the supermarket to steer clear of. Suss out how your family are. Don't tell people you have extra food.
Again, if we have a soft Brexit, where TM's Deal or similar passes, these kind of issues will not happen as a big shock.

MyOtherProfile · 05/12/2018 08:03

Thanks for your opening post @RedToothBrush

GardenOfSeeds · 05/12/2018 08:31

Suss out food supply. Suss out any noisy knobheads at the supermarket to steer clear of.

Am I to spy on the Asda delivery? Why is the noisy knobhead at the supermarket someone I am factoring in to my spying activities?Confused

Why can't I go to the Winchester and sit it out?Wink

1tisILeClerc · 05/12/2018 08:35

Thanks again RTB for the new thread and all for the analysis of the situation.
It seems we had the binary choice of leave or remain, now RTB is suggesting about 6 variations, could it be that by March next year we can all have our own personalised Brexit?
It feels very tempting to do some prepping as suggested by Bellinisurge then actively ignore everything to to with Brexit until March 30th morning then look out and see what happened.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2018 08:39

If we do get No Deal, would there be enough time left for it to matter much whether it is intended, or just blundered into accidentally.

I see a fundamental difference between accidental and deliberate no deal on two counts.

Accidental would be the result of political crisis. It would represent chaos and a lack of leadership. Even if planning is on going, psychological preparation for no deal would be different and anger over who to blame would be different.

I'm largely thinking accidental no deal Brexit now mainly likely to accompany a full blown constitutional crisis or a collapse in the current government in some way.

That's not to say deliberate no deal Brexit wouldn't. Its just that one is more orderly and managed than the other on a political level even if the unlying prep is the same.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 08:48

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Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
BlueEyeshadow · 05/12/2018 08:49

My MP is normally a total loyalist who backed Grieve III last night (he's murmured about rebelling before but always given way), so I just emailed him to say thank you and nil illegitimati carborundum and (with just a hint of now you've rediscovered your backbone) please continue to vote with your conscience...

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 08:50

I'm largely thinking accidental no deal Brexit now mainly likely to accompany a full blown constitutional crisis or a collapse in the current government in some way

There's also the accidental fracturing of the Union ? I'm not constitutional expert, but then it's clear no one in government is either.

Motheroffourdragons · 05/12/2018 08:51

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

HesterThrale · 05/12/2018 09:32

So Nigel Farage quits UKIP, apparently because of its extremist stance.
There’s a suggestion there’s more to it than meets the eye.

So @Nigel Farage quits UKIP over extremism. But listen to Episode Two of @DialMueller and you'll get a better reason. Mueller is coming

mobile.twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1070098086687580160?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 09:40

So Nigel Farage quits UKIP, apparently because of its extremist stance. There’s a suggestion there’s more to it than meets the eye.

Apparently he doesn't like being associated with racists. Just cunts.

HesterThrale · 05/12/2018 09:44

Grieve III: So if the Deal is voted down on Tuesday and the Govt have to come back to Parliament with a proposal within 21 days, that takes us neatly to New Year’s Day.

Someone’s going to have a busy Christmas.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 09:58

Grieve III: So if the Deal is voted down on Tuesday and the Govt have to come back to Parliament with a proposal within 21 days, that takes us neatly to New Year’s Day.

As this is a Brexit topic, there's no need for any effort to check facts (obviously).

What are peoples feelings as to whether it's 21 "real" days, or 21 "parliamentary days" ? If the latter, it's over 4 weeks, surely ?

ElenadeClermont · 05/12/2018 10:04

Sean O'Grady in the Independent thinks that the Government does not want to publish the legal advice because it will prove that they entered into the Withdrawal Agreement in bad faith. That sounds about right and so shameful.

lonelyplanetmum · 05/12/2018 10:06

Normally legally to calculate a time limit you exclude the day the period begins on.

If the period to comply is five days or fewer you normally ignore the weekend, bank holidays.

If it is longer than five days those days are included. So a requirement to comply within twenty days will inevitably include the weekend and Christmas bank holiday days.

So I think it's maybe the 2nd!

Buteo · 05/12/2018 10:07

I'm largely thinking accidental no deal Brexit now mainly likely to accompany a full blown constitutional crisis or a collapse in the current government in some way.

Would the ERG put the 48 letters in to prompt this?

lonelyplanetmum · 05/12/2018 10:08

Sorry 21 days. I think you don't include the 11 Dec so that takes us to 2 Jan. Happy 2019 everyone?

TheElementsSong · 05/12/2018 10:10

Thanks for the new thread RTB and goodness, what an eventful day!

puttingthegenieback · 05/12/2018 10:10

Just saw this in the Guardian. Genius Leadsom at it again. Am I alone in thinking this is fairly outrageous?? Yes, how dare MPs insist that the government fulfil Parliament's binding request? Hmm

In a defiant interview on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme, Leadsom, the leader of the House, said any MP who had ambitions of being in government at some point in the future would “live to regret” the contempt vote that forced the government to publish its full Brexit legal advice.

lonelyplanetmum · 05/12/2018 10:12

...prove that they entered into the Withdrawal Agreement in bad faith

Intending what? Also the specific instruction from the govt should become clear. Did the PM ask for any specific political points to be addressed.

Also where is any response or concern or information about motives behind the shooting in NI? Any hint of edging towards troubles will be incremental not instant.

lonelyplanetmum · 05/12/2018 10:16

the leader of the House, said any MP who had ambitions of being in government at some point in the future would “live to regret

Mafia type grudges then.. we're coming for you? Nice compassionate public service attitude there.