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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
Childrenofthesun · 08/12/2018 23:18

MPs believe Amber Rudd Michael Gove “dream ticket” (insert your own adjective) could emerge

What strange times we live in when you actually think that might be the least-worst option. And as a teacher, I loathe Michael Gove with every fibre of my being.

Jason118 · 08/12/2018 23:29

And as a human I loathe Michael Gove with every fibre of my being

Peregrina · 08/12/2018 23:31

1. TM changes mind

She might have learnt her lesson here - last time she changed her mind, it was disastrous for her.

Jason118 · 08/12/2018 23:47

She's like a fish hooked on a Brexit fishing line, twisting and turning hither and yon looking to find a way out, as the keep net of no deal draws ever nearer.

plaidlife · 09/12/2018 00:08

mrs8 you aren't wrong!

prettybird · 09/12/2018 00:46

I agree BigChoc - the SNP are indeed powerless in Westminster - even if they had 56 or 59 MPs Shock - but the positive is that others, both in England and more importantly abroad are now starting to see and understand why the Scots are so frustrated. Smile

I was referring more to the soft diplomacy that NS is indubitably undertaking around the EU and in EFTA, in particular the Nordic Nations.

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2018 05:33

Alex Wickham @alexwickham
Vote delayed says Sunday Times 😫

And I'm off on holiday, though I shall check in when I can.

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 09/12/2018 05:36

Michael Savage @michaelsavage
BREAKING: Tobias Ellwood, defence minister who had been regarded as someone pondering his future, says he will back the Brexit deal.

But warns the Leave mandate may soon be out of date as sentiment changes. Sounds like he’s pondering a second referendum.

OP posts:
Plonkysaurus · 09/12/2018 07:51

I want a new government.

How on earth the tories continue to scaremonger about the possibility of a Corbyn gov't, considering the lies, backstabbing, infighting, hate crimes and general incompetence of their own administration. I dont trust JC but if it allows us to end the hateful tory austerity policy and stop being so fucking isolationist then so bloody be it.

Every time my MIL shares anything Brexit related my despair soars. This is the latest, liking a desire to remain with appeasement. Unlike leaving, which is actual appeasement.
briefingsforbrexit.com/a-letter-to-remainers-by-dr-graham-gudgin/

GaspodeWonderCat · 09/12/2018 07:58

MrsR8 I propose Nicola Sturgeon as our candidate for the role of James Kirk. She could be the one (and there can only be one) to win the impossible challenge.

jasjas1973 · 09/12/2018 08:04

@missclimpson

Of course many GP's would saw off their left leg for their GC BUT not for anyone else's grandchildren.

Recently saw a generational TV debate on Brexit, the older group ended up chanting at the younger group "we did it, we did it" in response to the younger grp complaining about housing and uni fee's! this idea that all pensioners are selfless and compassionate is simply not true.

The vast majority of the retired pay very little tax (and no NI) as tax thresholds increase year on year, so of course don't mind other people paying more to fund their old age care.

lonelyplanetmum · 09/12/2018 08:19

And I'm off on holiday, though I shall check in when I can.

Right- I was wanting this bloody vote to be over but now the govt need to hold the vote until RTB returns.

You are coming back aren't you?
(Have a well deserved break! )

bellinisurge · 09/12/2018 08:20

Love the Star Trek reference @Mrsr8

Daddybegood · 09/12/2018 08:21

Indeed jasjas, it is very easy for an older person on a triple lock pension, other benefits and a secure home to say "we knew there would be problems initially with brexit, but we will get through those few bumps".....because they are not losing their jobs, their homes etc. and don't mind if others do
Similarly there are those with Irish parents who voted leave who say "well I can get dual nationality" ....pure selfishness

Mrsr8 · 09/12/2018 08:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

missclimpson · 09/12/2018 08:31

I can't find anything more recent than 2015, but then pensioners were paying 11% of the country's total tax revenue. On average £3258 p.a.
Do people have evidence that it has dropped since then?
I certainly didn't suggest that all pensioners are selfless and compassionate. That would be a ridiculous generalisation.

lonelyplanetmum · 09/12/2018 08:40

they are not losing their jobs, their homes etc. and don't mind if others do

Daily Express spouting FIL actually said that he doesn't care if DH ( his only child) loses his job. Getting rid of other European countries who ' want to take us over' is more important.

My friend's Mum (who still posts daily Leave propaganda about WWII etc) actually said:
" I don't work, never have, lol, won't affect me! "

It will affect her DCs jobs though,and she is also a very devout active Christian?

Hazardswan · 09/12/2018 08:44

Morning thoughts

-Noooooo, not a delayed vote Sad it'll just slow everything down except the exit date.

-Surely Norway is off the table given that Norway it self thinks we're a nasty abusive husband?

-Theres four sensible options 1. No brexit, 2. revoke, 3. remain 4. null and voiding. I'm not fussed either will do.

Enjoy your holibob Red

lonelyplanetmum · 09/12/2018 08:46

For balance, I should say I know others of the Grandparent generation, like my other friend's parents who are in their late 80's. They are incandescent with rage at the current govt, and are writing to their MP regularly to urge her to try and salvage the closest EU relationship possible.

bellinisurge · 09/12/2018 08:48

Your friend's mum was, at most, a child in WWII. As a female child in the UK she will have had limited personal experience of conflict unless she saw bombing first hand or lost a family member. Her parents will have been working their arses off to shield her from the very worst domestic effects. She will, like me, have then grown up seeing lots of morale boosting black and white films about WWII where you had to watch very carefully to see the subtlety.
She cannot say that she lived through WWII as an adult and if she has a rose tinted view of the UK's experience of WWII she is deluded. Because that's what rose tinted spectacles do.
My parents before they died were just about able to talk more frankly about it to me. It was not a lovely time.

lonelyplanetmum · 09/12/2018 08:58

Yes my friend's Mum was a young child in WWII. Whenever she links the current mess to WWII it's to try and ' prove' that other EU countries owe us in some way.

Bizarre - her posts really wind me up as she implies wanting EU membership equates to wanting a cushy life. She oscillate between urging her friends to support no international trade with anyone -at all- ever. So she says stuff like there's too much choice in the shops anyway. Alternatively she implies we alone should have tariff free unrestricted trade with everyone because of our WWII sacrifices.

I find that posting that YouTube link with music and growing columns showing WWII deaths from other countries too tends to limit her friends' supportive comments.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 09/12/2018 09:03

Exactly, bellini. My grandfather was unable to talk about his experiences for many years. In fact, he never talked to us grandchildren about it. My grandmother also did not have happy memories of the war - she was left to manage with two pre-school children and a house at the end of her road was bombed. It was not a happy time.

frumpety · 09/12/2018 09:05

Plonky I took the time to read Dr Gudgins letter to Remainers that you linked. It was quite a clever little piece, I particularly liked the following

Your fervent wish is for a second referendum which you always call a ‘people’s vote’ without any sense of embarrassment at the propagandist use of evasive language typical of demagogues.

I also rather enjoyed his premise that only the well-educated were liable to fall for the intricacies of confirmation bias. Smile

Moussemoose · 09/12/2018 09:14

A point I've made before about WW2.

In 1939 the U.K. turned towards Europe. We rejected isolationism, it was the exact opposite of Brexit.

The U.K. could have made a unilateral peace agreement with Nazi Germany but it didn't.

We didn't turn and run - like Brexit - we realised that we are intrinsically linked to Europe, their issues are our issues, so we stood and fought with them and for them.

The lesson on WW2 is that Europe is better together. A lesson that led to the formation of the EU.

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 09/12/2018 09:15

Rudd surely is far too risky given her tiny majority? If Labour threw everything at it, perhaps even a judicious smear in there, it's not impossible she might lose her seat. As for Gove, let's hope Ken and Malcolm Rifkind will go on the telly pissed again and totally accidentally guv scupper his chances.