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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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DGRossetti · 08/12/2018 16:42

Has the UK become a toxic parcel in musical chairs ?

Any bloc the UK seeks to join is going to ensure the UK has no power in that bloc after the damage it's done in a bloc that it voted to remain in and reaped the benefit of for over 40 years

Because there can't be a country in the world stupid enough to think England would ever play nice with any one else.

Actually, there is one.

England.

DGRossetti · 08/12/2018 16:53

Spite ?

www.thenational.scot/news/17283505.uk-blocks-scottish-support-for-eu-citizens-settled-status-fees/

thenational.scot
First Minister reveals UK is blocking Scottish support scheme for EU citizens
By National Newsdesk
3-4 minutes

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon slammed the UK Government's 'hostile environment'

Updated

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon slammed the UK Government's 'hostile environment'

THE UK Government will not allow Holyrood ministers to pay £65 settled status fees for European citizens who are working in Scotland's public services, Nicola Sturgeon has said.

The First Minister has already promised her government would pick up the cost for NHS staff and other public-sector workers who have come to live in Scotland from other parts of the European Union.

But she told the Health and Social Care Scotland conference in Glasgow the "UK Government will not allow third-party payments, thereby forcing EU citizens to pay it upfront".

The Scottish Government will seek to reimburse these people afterwards.

READ MORE: Tory MSP left red-faced as Mike Russell quotes his Unionist blog in Brexit debate

There are around 13,000 citizens from other EU nations currently working in health and social care in Scotland – with this group making up 3.5% of the sector's overall workforce.

In social care alone, some 7.3% of all registered nurses and 5.5% of all staff come from other European nations.

Sturgeon said the "hostile environment" the UK Government has created for migrants has already resulted in a drop of nurses from Europe applying to work in Scotland.

She challenged politicians in Westminster to ditch the "unacceptable" settled status fee and instead "value the doctors, nurses and carers working day in, day out to provide care in our times of need".

The First Minister said: "It is unacceptable that the UK Government insists on charging EU citizens, including children, a fee to apply for a status they are already entitled to.

"The Scottish Government is committed to paying the fee for EU citizens working in our devolved public services.

"However, the UK Government will not allow third-party payments, thereby forcing EU citizens to pay it up-front."

Sturgeon added: "EU citizens working in our public services are crucial to their successful delivery.

"It is of great concern that the more barriers the UK Government places on enabling people to stay in the UK, the more people could be forced to leave.

"In Scotland we are already seeing a drop in applications from nurses from across the EU - and that is hardly surprising given the hostile environment being created by UK Government policy.

"The UK Government has consistently failed to deliver a suitable migration policy for Scotland.

"Instead of forcing charges upon EU citizens, the UK Government should value the doctors, nurses and carers working day in, day out to provide care in our times of need, and drop the settled status fee."

plaidlife · 08/12/2018 16:56

I think you can make an emotional case of the Eu to an extent. Feel good films based on equality legislation, environmental protection etc.
I don't think the committed leavers will change their mind you must have more hope of engaging young people to actually vote.

Icantreachthepretzels · 08/12/2018 17:45

I think you can make an emotional case of the Eu to an extent
I think the remain campaign could also make a big deal of the political clout we actually wield in Europe as part of the EU. Billboards with every positive change that Britain helped vote in, billboards with laws that were written by the British inside the EU - or were flat out taken from Britain in the first place, Britain's strength as part of europol, how much we've put into Galileo etc ... Britain makes Europe great and Europe makes Britain greater *. It's hard to spin the 'poor us getting bullied' narrative if the 'Britain is a leading force in the EU' narrative is being shouted from the rooftops.

  • I don't actually approve of the use of 'great' to appeal to the inflated sense of pride of the 'great' British public... but in an emergency, needs must.
BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 17:48

"We're even Greater IN"

Quietrebel · 08/12/2018 17:51

Yes turn the populist rhetoric on its head.

Icantreachthepretzels · 08/12/2018 17:53

I like that! but start it with Britain: we're even Greater IN

Is there somebody you can email it to? seems a shame for a good slogan to be hanging around on this board , whilst the official campaign will now doubt louse it up again.

1tisILeClerc · 08/12/2018 18:34

I was disgusted to read on SKY news (website) about the slimy worms, sorry Tory party donors, who are upset that their multimillion donations haven't resulted in leaving yet so they think that Brexit is being spoiled.
No suggestion they might contribute a bit more in taxes and actually repair the problems in the UK.

1tisILeClerc · 08/12/2018 18:35

Sadly. 'Britain, we grate in the EU'.

1tisILeClerc · 08/12/2018 18:45

The trouble is that with 40 years of being a bit 'meh' at political level with the EU it will take a heck of a lot of persuasion that the UK really wants to stay and actually join in properly.
It is a tragedy that at personal and business cooperation levels there is no issue at all and probably even an amount of favouritism but the politicians have buggered it all up.

nicoala1 · 08/12/2018 18:48

So where are we now pray tell?

The Debate ( I am very sceptical about any debate between two people who essentially want the same thing!) but anyway.

Loss of vote. Then retry. (Just like they laughed out loud at ROI for re running the Lisbon Treaty vote, OK).

Honestly the UK has led itself into this mess, well certain EU sceptics have, but they are nowhere to be seen now, probably licking their wounds!

Crunch time beckons now. The arrogance and hubris has been found to be hollow. So let us see what happens. Interesting week ahead.

frumpety · 08/12/2018 18:50

Took my smallest to see the new Nativity rocks film , had a very disgruntled Brexiteer behind me, muttering away to himself Grin

Loletta · 08/12/2018 18:54

What was he muttering?Grin

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2018 19:41

Tim Shipman @shippersunbound
BREAKING: Will Quince, a Brexiteer who is Gavin Williamson's PPS, is resigning tonight because he doesn't support the deal, I understand

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 08/12/2018 19:50

www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/here-are-all-the-tory-mps-who-have-indicated-so-far-that?__twitter_impression=true
These 107 Tory Rebel MPs Have Indicated That They Won’t Vote For Theresa May’s Brexit Deal
Forget the 48 letters — this is the number that is really worrying Downing Street.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 08/12/2018 19:59

Adam Payne @adampayne26
Exc: Is Labour going to back a People's Vote? Don't bank on it.

Corbyn's office has done private polling in marginal seats suggesting that to do so would trigger a backlash, not win new support, well-placed sources tell us

www.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-fears-a-brexit-backlash-if-he-backs-a-peoples-vote-second-referendum-2018-12?r=US&IR=T
Jeremy Corbyn fears a Brexit 'betrayal' backlash if he backs a People's Vote

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 20:11

Norwegian politician absolutely slams the UK for their Brexit policies with breathtaking putdown

Ouch
C4 interview linked

I wonder how many leaders privately think the UK has trashed its rep
This arrogant blundering aggressive UK govt has burned many bridges

https://www.joe.ie/news/norwegian-politician-absolutely-slams-uk-stance-brexit-650917

Heidi Nordby Lunde, president of Norway's European Movement:

"I'm sceptic to letting the UK into the EFTA family because it's kind of like having an abusive partner spiking the drinks and inviting them to the Christmas party."

When asked if she felt that the potential of Britain joining EFTA would upset the political balance that exists in that group, she added:

"I think you would mess it all up for us, the way you have messed it up for yourselves."

..."The Norway deal that you talk about has four issues that I don't think the UK politicians want:

First of all, we accept migration internally in the EU,
we also accept rulings by the European Court of Justice,
we accept the rules and regulations that we get from the EU.

Also being in the EFTA bloc that has the deal with the deal with the EU on our behalf, we cant make our own free trade agreements without having Liechtenstein, Iceland with us."

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 20:27

Robert Peston@Peston

These are not the words of a Labour leader who thinks a referendum or #PeoplesVote is an “option” he could endorse, after he fails to secure a general election.
There will be almighty row at top of Labour Party, probably within days. ⁦*@jeremycorbyn*

Jeremy Corbyn blasts 'neoliberal' EU as he calls for a socialist Europe

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/100414/jeremy-corbyn-blasts-neoliberal-eu-he-calls

Jeremy Corbyn has blamed the "failed neoliberal policies" of the EU for the 2016 Brexit vote,
as he vowed to push for "a different kind of Europe" after the UK leaves the bloc

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 20:31

Sam Coates Timess@SamCoatesTimes*

Three reasons that Brexit vote may never happen

  1. TM changes mind
  2. Amendments passed
  3. Talked out

.... so don’t believe No10 when they say it’s definitely happening

< but to stop the vote, May needs to propose a procedural motion to do so - and win it. Can she even do that ? >

Mrsr8 · 08/12/2018 22:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 22:40

Sam Coates Times@SamCoatesTimes

Labour looking to target May with a personal vote of no confidence if she loses

  • Novel approach which avoids Fixed Term Parliament Act
  • Has no legal force but immense political symbolism
  • No10 fear other parties inc DUP could support this

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aaba50d8-fa73-11e8-b253-3f2f3ba0db47

Although the vote would not be binding it would place enormous pressure on Mrs May to resign. Conservative MPs reported “febrile” communications yesterday from those jockeying for position before a potential contest.

Among those expected to run are Boris Johnsonn, Dominic Raab, Amber Rudd, Liz Truss, Sajid Javidd, Jeremy Hunt and Michael Gove.

In a sign of ebbing cabinet confidence that Mrs May can win Tuesday’s vote, Ms Rudd today becomes the first cabinet minister to break the taboo of discussing a “Plan B"

prettybird · 08/12/2018 22:43

Watching/reading all this justifiable trashing of the UK's reputation as its Government chooses to shoot itself in the mouth Sad, I try to console myself with the thought that Sturgeon and the rest of Team Scotland are maintaining the soft diplomacy, saying "We're not all like that" Hmm

HesterThrale · 08/12/2018 22:56

An interesting article:
www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2018/12/seven-rules-remainers-if-they-want-win-people-s-vote

Seven rules for Remainers if they want to win a “People’s Vote”

These are, in my view, the 3 most persuasive arguments. Remainers and Leavers would probably share these views:

4. Keep pointing to the botched Brexit.
This is the biggest area of shared ground: 92 per cent of people think the Brexit process is a mess. No matter which way you voted, you almost certainly think that it has been royally screwed up by Westminster politicians.
5. Paint Brexit as a distraction.
First of all, let’s be clearer about this: May’s deal isn’t the end of Brexit; it’s the start of endless Brexit. Remainers are never going to persuade hardcore Leavers to change their minds about the EU. What can they do is focus on the common ground they share with wavering Leavers: that Brexit is a colossal, painful, decade-long waste of time and effort, and a distraction from this country’s more urgent problems.
6. Making this about taking back control.
Another area of shared ground is, or should be, sovereignty. May’s deal means Britain loses the power to set its own rules – precisely the opposite of what Leavers voted for. “No Deal” would leave us enfeebled.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 23:06

Pretty imo, NS is the only pol to have done a good job during this debacle

However, even with 35 MPs, a Scottish party is fairly powerless in the HoC
Brexiters agitate about "sovereignty", but have deliberately steam-rollered over Scottish MPs and interests, to an extent that no member country would suffer, or be expected to tolerate, within the EU.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 23:09

Sam Coates Timess@SamCoatesTimes*

Boris Johnson tells allies May could go on Wednesday

Jeremy Hunt suggests his leadership USP is “managed no deal” (gulp)

MPs believe Amber Rudd Michael Gove “dream ticket” (insert your own adjective) could emerge

Tensions betwn 2nd ref and Norway rise
< the 2 campaigns fighting instead of being allies against No Deal >

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