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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
DoctorTwo · 08/12/2018 00:19

Did schools stop teaching history ?

yeah they did.

WhiffofSnell · 08/12/2018 00:20

Keir Starmer said at the start of the week Labour wasn't opposing the Withdrawal Agreement

Did he??

Coggle · 08/12/2018 00:37

So why are people expecting TM to lose the vote?

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 01:30

Hohum, despite the deep hole the govt have dug themselves - and the rest of us - into
looks like the Tories would have to formally split before most voters notice

The 3 polls by different orgs this last week show them neck & neck with Labour:

CON: 40/38/38
LAB: 38/38/38
LDEM: 9/9/9
GRN: 4/5/5
UKIP: 4/5/4

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 01:34

coggle, whiff All current calculations on the vote have all Labour MPs voting against the WA, except for one MP
About 100 Tories say they will vote against
All 35 SNPs are against, all 10 DUPs

Hence May expected to lose heavily

If Labour were to support the WA, or even abstain, it would pass

borntobequiet · 08/12/2018 07:31

If the Conservatives split and the hard right aligned with UKIP redux, would they be joined by the likes of Hoey? (Not Frank Field though, I wouldn’t think.). Finally British politics would escape the artificial divide of left and right as defined by tradition.

DGRossetti · 08/12/2018 07:35

If Labour were to support the WA, or even abstain

Ah, yes. "Abstain". The cowards way. Certainly at this level.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 08/12/2018 08:17

I did early worry about a Labour abstention shortly after the deal was announced but not now after what so many including Corbyn have said since.

WhiffofSnell · 08/12/2018 08:53

BigChoc - phew! that's what I thought.

Are the MPs being whipped on this vote?

Violetparis · 08/12/2018 09:37

Mistigri your post is very interesting, does it mean then that the protestors in France are a mix across the political spectrum ? If they are 42% Le Pen supportors, 20% Melenchon, who are the other 38% ?

HesterThrale · 08/12/2018 09:56

Time to email MPs again. Galvanise any Tory waverers prior to the vote.
You can use this method; it’s very easy:

www.writetothem.com/

Points I think I’ll choose from for my email:
-WA is very damaging to UK
-No Deal is very very damaging (and there’s no mandate or majority for it)
-There’s no deal as good as the one we have
-A50 seems to be revocable
-It was an ‘advisory’ ref.
-The Leave promises can’t be fulfilled
-Unlawful conduct is increasingly being uncovered
-It would take away rights/freedoms and make us all poorer
-The Tory party schism is turning into Tory Party self-destruction
-Something so major needs to be in the hands of the whole Parliament to guide

1tisILeClerc · 08/12/2018 10:12

Violet
I am guessing there are about 3 levels of 'protest'.
What I see around me is a 'passive' support, somewhere around 50% who have their yellow jackets on display. These are people doing 'ordinary stuff' like collecting their kids from school and shopping etc.
There are those who have manned barricades who make road junctions 'slow' but are generally good natured with maybe a couple of Gendarmes keeping an eye on things. Then there is a new hardcore who are prepared to do real battle as has been seen in Paris.
How this translates into the way the various groups vote I have no idea. To me Macron's ideas are on the whole OK and good, and if he is allowed to continue may well be good for France, but he may be a bit too 'posh' and out of touch with the issues that affect much of the country. The fuel price proposal LOOKS OK from the perspective of a city dweller but is crippling for most of rural France where distances to travel to get to shops, work etc are large.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 10:16

Left vs right looks more cultural now, not based on the traditional high tax & spending vs low

Maybe because higher tax has for long been pushed as funding the NHS,
which younger voters, who are more likely to vote Labour, see as them paying more tax to fundsomething that is more for older people than themselves.

A divided society

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/08/generational-divide-uk-split-by-age-over-tax-rises-for-public-services

“traditional left-right politics is being flipped on its head, as under-45s back lower taxes and a smaller state, despite overwhelmingly voting Labour in the last election,

while Conservative-leaning voters over 65 back higher taxes and spending”.

SusanWalker · 08/12/2018 10:40

I don't understand the idea behind postponing the vote. It's got to be voted in at some point. Does TM really think she can persuade more people to vote for it if she has a bit longer? Or is she planning on wasting her time by going to Brussels and attempting a new negotiation?

What I also don't understand is all the outrage over the Irish backstop. Surely it can't have come as such a surprise to all these MPs. It's been obvious for months that this would be the outcome.

SusanWalker · 08/12/2018 10:43

I heard on the remainiacs podcast that in a second ref the leave slogan will be 'tell them again'. Remain better come up with something good because they need to do a better campaign than last time.

jasjas1973 · 08/12/2018 10:45

Of course over 65s back higher taxes for NHS, they wont be paying them, yet will be the main beneficiaries of better NHS services.

U45s have, generally speaking, no money!

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2018 10:45

“traditional left-right politics is being flipped on its head, as under-45s back lower taxes and a smaller state, despite overwhelmingly voting Labour in the last election,

while Conservative-leaning voters over 65 back higher taxes and spending”.

Thats hilarious

OP posts:
frankiestein401 · 08/12/2018 10:49

surely under 45s antipathy to tax increases is more related to their current finances - that demographic has basically been shafted by uni fees and loans at exorbitant rates, house prices, zero hours contracts/job uncertainty, universal creditbet al.

it's much easier to agree to 2p tax increase if you have a permanent job/steady pension.

Violetparis · 08/12/2018 10:51

Thanks 1tisILeClerc

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 10:55

Yes, it's nuts
We need new parties now, because the voters seem to have divided along "culture" lines, or liberal vs authoritarian

Whatever the Tories do, the most likely alternatives - No Deal or Revoke - look prime movers for a split
The Referendum they chose to resolve their party split may well be the catalyst for its destruction

As Labour haven't yet bothered to make a clear policy and are not savaging each others like the Tories atm, they look stable enough.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 10:58

Easy to vote for a tax increase if you have already paid off your mortgage
and if the increase is for something you use a lot, the NHS

plus of course those of working age are likely to be paying more of the tax increase than those on pensions

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 08/12/2018 10:59

It's just self interest on both sides really. The under 45s see it as yet another thing they'd end up paying for and not get much benefit from. The over 45s see that volunteers aren't going to cut and, in the case of the women, that what this actually means is get them to do it. More volunteers is code for more middle aged and older women doing things for free, after all. Both groups are correct on these specific points.

Personally I think both are wrong about the solution and it's going to need to be tax, but on assets rather than income. Expecting volunteers to fill the gaps is a stupid and unworkable idea, and the demands for social care are such that already overstretched working people are not going to be able to pay more tax to cover it either. It's just not going to be possible. So we have to look at other ways.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 10:59

I bet the elder age group wouldn't be so keen if the tax increases were to abolish uni fees & uni debt,
whereas the younger voters would be

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 11:00

"volunteers" whether pushed by govt or voters, just means "don't want to pay for it"

lonelyplanetmum · 08/12/2018 11:02

That^^ Leave 'tell them again' slogan is really good.

As I've said before my stereotypical Leave voting and pontificating FIL is always on about 'they' and ' them' . He doesn't know who they are..

It's they need to do something about potholes.
They're trying to take us over.
There's too many of them.
They need to bring back manufacturing.
They send us terrorists and criminals.
They need to go to the university of life.
They come here to claim our benefits.
They need to do something about hospital GP waiting lists.

FIL loves telling and he loves telling them.

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