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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
frumpety · 07/12/2018 21:04

'The cross-Government planning assumptions have been revised".

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 21:10

Priti Vacant - dissected in the Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-agriculture-chief-phil-hogan-rails-against-tory-mp-s-food-threat-1.3723610
Buttons

EU commissioner for agriculture Phil Hogan
... said he believed British consumers would be “horrified” with the suggestion by Priti Patel

that food supplies to and from Ireland through the UK “landbridge” should be used as a bargaining chip in negotiations
... to encourage Ireland to drop the contentious backstop option in the divorce deal aimed at preventing a hard Irish border

...the remarks showed “how much out of touch” the Conservative MP was because the UK must import 60 per cent of its food.

Moreover, 43 per cent of the food consumed by the UK comes from the Republic.

“So if she wants to advocate a policy that brings about starvation of the -British_ people this is a good way of going about it”

FestiveForestieraNoel · 07/12/2018 21:14

🤣

FestiveForestieraNoel · 07/12/2018 21:15

I don't want anyone in the UK to go hungry due to Brexit it or any other reason.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 21:15

Simon Carswelll@SiCarswel*l

A total of 156 North-South co-operation programmes, listed publicly on Friday night for the first time, will be safeguarded by the UK after Brexit under commitments it makes in the withdrawal agreement

< 156 more reasons why there has to be a NI backstop to prevent a hard border >

Loletta · 07/12/2018 21:17

Sorry I've missed it, what's the Lib Dem's proposed amendment?

Hazardswan · 07/12/2018 21:39

Have I missed a High court link today?

Evidence was being put forward today RE the illegal Leave spending.
Just wondered how it went and how it's been reported.

Not seen anything in the papers but there's so much speculation and waffle I might have missed it!

Violetparis · 07/12/2018 21:43

Lib Dem amendment is to put preparation for a second referendum to a vote in the House of Commons. Some people not happy with the timing, think it's too soon and not enough support in the Commons yet. Not sure if the amendment will definitely be put to the vote.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 21:48

Hazard You mean the attempt to have the vote declared null & void because of illegal practice ?

Today, they were in court asking for permission to bring a legal challenge that would allow a judge to review their claims.

Decision is due 14.00 Monday
likely to be overshadowed by the ECJ decision earlier the same day

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 21:51

You can follow here:

UK in EU Challengee@UKEUchallenge*

Judicial Review Permission Hearing was today.
Decision expected on Monday 10 December.
....
Update
We’ve concluded our arguments and left the Royal Courts of Justice.
We Remain optimistic for the result.
The decision has been deferred until Monday or Tuesday of next week.
Thank you to everybody who has supported us to get this far.

Hazardswan · 07/12/2018 21:54

Aye that's the one bigchoc thank you. Will keep my eyes peeled Monday.

Feel as if I need a flow chart of all avenues being persued, ECJ, null and void, peoples vote, etc. I'm floored by it unless I just spend the day reading.

Hazardswan · 07/12/2018 21:58

X post thanks choc Cake

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 22:08

Now everyone is after May

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
OP posts:
2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 07/12/2018 22:34

By way of light relief...my experience of the millennium bug, one of the only households to experience it,p.
DS was 4 I think and I found to my horror hundreds of the bloody things in his hair about 2 hours before we were due to join friends at a party to see in the millennium where he would be crashing out in the double bed with all the other little ones as necessary.
All shops closed and no nit supplies in the house. Cue lots of conditioner and a very haphazard short hair cut to get rid of them. (which needed redoing on the 2nd January)
Never seen so many or since of the bleedin’ blighters. Loads of millennium bugs. We had plenty ! Grin

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 22:44

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Excl: Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson warns Theresa May the Conservative Party could split up next week if she insists on holding the meaningful vote

www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/7928221/amber-rudd-eu-halfway-house-theresa-may-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Amber Rudd says Britain should join an EU halfway house if Theresa May’s deal falls through
The Work and Pensions Secretary believes membership of the European Economic Area (EEA) could be a Plan B to Mrs May's Brexit deal

The Sun can reveal that Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson has told Mrs May that the Tories will formally split if she insists on holding the vote.

It will be heavily defeated, and spark an immediate civil war between Tory soft and hard Brexiteers for different Brexit alternatives that will be “irreconcilable”, Mr Williamson has argued.

A source close to the Defence Secretary – one of the PM’s closes allies – said: “Backbenchers are approaching Gavin and asking him to persuade her not to go ahead with this, as a former chief whip.

“It’s a case of what is the worst risk, the severe embarrassment of pulling the vote versus the end of today’s Conservative Party and letting in Jeremy Corbyn.”

But Ms Rudd today argues that it would be “a mistake to delay it for avoidance sake”, and wants the PM to press on with the vote, along with Chancellor Philip Hammond and Health Secretary Matt Hancock.

Here's an out there thought:

Monday NewKip launched
Tuesday The WA vote
Wednesday May refuses to resign
Thursday Cons split, with the ERG joining NewKip
Friday GE effectively called due to collapse in government

That's not a prediction. But it's not beyond the realms of possibility either

OP posts:
Talkinpeece · 07/12/2018 22:49

www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/world/europe/corbyn-may-uk-brexit.html

I'm finding some of the best analysis comes from non UK sources

Mistigri · 07/12/2018 22:57

TF1 (French BBC) is saying that 42% of gilets jaunes were Le Pen voters at the last election, 20% voted for Mélenchon.

You can see where all this is coming from when you see literature with the list of the movement's demands, which include "frexit" (in reality frexit has little popular support even among NF supporters).

DD's Parisien lycée closed and exams cancelled tomorrow, I've told her to stay at home.

Still can't get over students from her lycée protesting about "the elite" GrinShockConfused.

What a mess...

wherearemychickens · 07/12/2018 23:12

Has this been posted yet? Marina Hyde on good form:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/07/brexit-soap-opera-jacob-rees-mogg-nigel-farage

OhYouBadBadKitten · 07/12/2018 23:45

Sunday sees the far right on their TR/anti brexit demo and a counter protest at the same time.

I've vaguely toyed with the idea of going on the counter protest, but actually, I think I'd rather police resources went on containing the thugs.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:49

Theresa May told to quit by Cabinet ministers if her Brexit deal falls and she fails to get better terms from EU

Tory right still in la-la land
There is no renegotiating.
The EU keep saying this is the only WA deal - and any transition trade deal will also have a backstop.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/07/theresa-may-told-quit-cabinet-ministers-brexit-deal-falls-fails/amp/?twitterr_impression=true

Theresa May has been warned by Cabinet ministers she will have to quit if her Brexit deal is defeated in the Commons next weekk^ and she fails to secure better terms from the EU,
the Telegraph can disclose.

Ministers believe that there is “zero” chance of her deal, which has been publicly criticised by more than 100 Tory MPs, passing in a crunch Commons vote on Tuesday next week.

One Cabinet minister told the Telegraph “she [Mrs May] will fall” if she is defeated
and then fails to go back to Brussels to fundamentally renegotiate the EU withdrawal agreement.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:51

So, is the Tory party finally going to split, with the hard right going off to join UKIP ?

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:51

Or will they all hang together after a No deal Brexit ?

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:56

Brexit: Collapse in pound would be no bad thing, says David Davis

DD must obviously stand for leader again after this intellectual gem:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexit-collapse-in-pound-would-be-no-bad-thing-says-david-davis-s3wp97jlt

Britain would benefit from a plunging pound after a no-deal Brexitt_, David Davis has said, suggesting it would ease the departure from Europe.

Rejecting claims that a hard Brexit would be worse for Britain than Europe, Mr Davis claimed a 10 per cent drop in sterling would not be “a bad thing”.
< ANOTHER 10% ? What about e.g. food imports, raw materials .... you fuckwit ? >

He said it would have a negative impact on European importers while offsetting the cost of tariffs for British companies selling to Europe.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2018 00:01

meanwhile to her left ...

Steven Swinfordd@Steven*_Swinford
...
Remainer Cabinet ministers are already holding talks about prospect of second referendum.

They want collective responsibility lifted so they can campaign to stay in rather than back PM's deal^

< Tory party may be disintegrating before our eyes, but we don't recognise it >

Peregrina · 08/12/2018 00:19

I have very mixed feelings about a second referendum. There would have to be strict rules in place about no false advertising and even stricter rules about who was allowed to take part, with swinging fines and/or imprisonment for organisations/people deliberately breaking the rules. So no money going to the DUP for advertising in London papers which don't circulate in NI, as an example. It would have to be written in capital letters that this was ADVISORY. Ideally thresholds would be set, and there would need to be agreement of all countries of the UK. It all seems a tall order. If not, we revert to the status quo, but what is the status quo exactly? So much damage has already been done.

But even then, it's only half the story - the real issues that drove the vote need to be looked at with a definite will to tackle them. People do value an NHS and are fed up with austerity. (Not the issues like people wanting to kick Muslims out, or the Rees-Mogg's of the world wanting to avoid their tax affairs coming under scrutiny.)

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