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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

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Thread gallery
30
RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 22:39

Nope. MN is zapping it.

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RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 22:42

Michael Gove @michaelgove
Michael Gove Retweeted Bruno Waterfield
Illuminating analysis from @BrunoBrussels

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/getting-stuck-with-the-backstop-is-not-in-eus-interests-either-6859ksld6
Getting stuck with the backstop is not in EU’s interests either

Well thats an interesting tweet...

The smell of desparation is getting stronger.

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RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 22:47

Ben Judah @b_judah
Norway is not going to be Norway.

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
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BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 22:50

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, Section 13 defines the schedule of events

If this WA is rejected then:

  • Within 21 sitting days,
    a minister must make a statement to the House

  • Within a further 7 sitting days,
    the government must table a motion that the HoC has "considered the matter" of that statement.

  • MPs can then add any amendments to this motion
    BUT
    even if a majority of MPs actually passed any amendment,

neither a motion nor its amendments are legally binding;
Only bills & their amendments are legally binding

imo:
An HoC amendment for e.g. Revoke, or a PV with Revoke as an option would have only political, not legal, importance.

If this didn't make the govt obey the wishes of the HoC,
then another stage / method would be needed to actually force them

e.g. a Vote of Confidence
which would give 14 days for May / Corbyn / ANYONE to form a govt.
If noone can, there would be a GE .... and depending on timing, the caretaker PM (May) might need to request an A50 extension from the EU

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 22:54

David Allen Green@davidallengreen

The focus on the backstop masks a broader Brexit issue

Nobody is confident that a UK/EU relationship agreement will be in place by 2022.

And this should concern UK politicians coming up the meaningful vote

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 22:55

This is a translated link to a La Figaro article about Gilets Jaunes

translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lefigaro.fr%2Fpolitique%2F2018%2F12%2F05%2F01002-20181205ARTFIG00383-gilets-jaunes-macron-annule-la-hausse-des-taxes-et-corrige-philippe.php%3Fredirect_premium

The intelligence services reportedly reported to the Elysee " calls to kill and be armed with guns to attack parliamentarians, the government, the executive and the police ." According to our sources, a major ministry has even been instructed to forbid its staff and the ministers concerned from going to work this weekend. " They are putschists. We are in a coup attempt , "we say the most serious of the world at the presidential palace.

Looks fun.

Here's the untranslated original.

www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2018/12/05/01002-20181205ARTFIG00383-gilets-jaunes-macron-annule-la-hausse-des-taxes-et-corrige-philippe.php?redirect_premium

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BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 22:57

For any WA and PD, whatever the intended form of Brexit,
I don't see how the details could be put into legal text and be ready to sign in 2022
Even for Norway++, 2023 is pushing it

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 22:57

Nobody is confident that a UK/EU relationship agreement will be in place by 2022.

Because there isn't a cat in hells chance we will have an agreement by 2022.

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BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 22:59

Coup attempt !
Or a return to 1968 Paris ?
< I do vaguely remember that, but the whole world was going nuts in 1968, as were my hormones >

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 23:14

James is happier tonight. I think thats where I'll park thoughts for tonight.

James Patrick @J_amesp
The no deal risk assessment has been revised. Though it’s still the default outcome requiring zero effort, it’s all the way down to 60/40.

It’s reduced on the assumption a Revocation Of Article 50 Bill will be introduced after defeat of May’s deal next week.

That assumption requires primary legislation to meet the constitutional requirements of unilateral revocation and no challenge to revocation on good faith/co-operation grounds.

If you throw people’s vote and Art 50 extension into the mix the risk assessment rises again to 75/25.

Happily, the noise made about the real risks of no deal, while largely ignored by the chattering classes, landed where it matters.

Which makes it worthwhile in many ways.

What I would add, briefly, is that revocation - though not without potential pitfalls - is the only secure route to avoiding no deal. It’s going to require the government though.

There’s no renegotiating to be done. No “better” deals. No extension for further British infighting.

The bottom line is: People in our government deliberately aimed for no deal and failed only because they were called out here and to the EU.

That’s a check and balance which did not come from our own parliament, sadly. But now it is on them to prevent a complete catastrofuck.

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WhiffofSnell · 06/12/2018 23:14

Why do I watch Question Time? Every week I hate the audience.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 23:19

For the same reason that the Romans threw people to the lions in amphitheatres and you always stare at a car crash.

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BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 23:28

and you look at your crap in the toilet bowl, before you flush

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 00:01

Lucy Prebble@lucyprebblish

...we must decide what kind of British to be.
The British where we go through with something we didn’t really want to do out of polite embarrassment,
or the British where we passive-aggressively say ok forget it then and agree to never mention it again.

Peregrina · 07/12/2018 00:44

Thats a big gap between Wickham's figure of 100. So why the big difference? Which is more accurate.

Because, as usual, a lot of them are all talk and no action.

Buteo · 07/12/2018 00:44

Well at least we now know what happened to Shergar.

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
borntobequiet · 07/12/2018 05:28

I wonder how Jane Austen would have described Mrs May? (Re her Hampshire/Surrey family).
“There was a stubbornness about her which made her intolerably stupid.”
My lesson on Probability yesterday involved the (changing) probability of a no-deal Brexit.

lonelyplanetmum · 07/12/2018 07:17

Mrs May? (Re her Hampshire/Surrey family).

I have previously pondered that as her parents were unusually called Hubert and Zaidee perhaps she was teased for being foreign even though she wasn't? If she had her Britishness challenged that would explain some of her attitudes.

Also I do think the surname of Brassiere ( sic) probably didn't go unnoticed in school nickname teasing episodes.

GD12 · 07/12/2018 07:50

@samcoatestimes

Ministers able overrule doctors and ration medicine in event of no deal.

twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1070944406126112769?s=19

GD12 · 07/12/2018 07:52

@samcoatestime

Ireland severely hit by no deal, faces food shortages. Some in government want to threaten them.

twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1070943476022435840?s=19

OhYouBadBadKitten · 07/12/2018 08:02

and of course on r4 this morning all they wittered on about was pharmacists being able to issue small amounts of medicine in terms of shortage. Which if you think about it can only mean pharmacists themselves choosing to override gps and ration medication, I can't think of any other way that it would help if there is a shortage.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 07/12/2018 08:09

A tiny snippet from the Times (you can register for two free articles a week) "Ministers will order them to alter prescriptions without first contacting the patient’s GP in order to mitigate any extreme shortages, according to a leaked document."

I find this very scary.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 08:15

What EXACTLY do you find scary about the idea of someone like May or Gove or Greyling or Leadsom being able to overrule doctors on prescriptions OYBBK?

Racism
Dislike of the Irish
Total ineptitude
Or just good old fashioned plain stupidity?

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2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 07/12/2018 08:25

Two and a half years and we are still stuck on NI. Which no one though was important pre ref

Excuse me the NI border and GFA was key reason I voted remain . I fell out big time the day after the ref with a friend. Citing it as why Brexit was such a big deal. That friendship has never really recovered.

And the start of the end for relationship with my brother.

Disclaimer: I have Irish genes, but live in England.

SusanWalker · 07/12/2018 08:28

I think my family tree could rival TMs. I've gone as far back as mid 1700s and all of my family on both sides come from either Northampton, Birmingham or Skipton. Apart from one lady who was from Essex.

I find the reports that she only gets cross when the idea of continuing FoM comes up interesting. It confirms my view that it's all about immigration for her. I still don't believe she voted remain.

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