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Brexit

Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?

987 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/11/2018 22:50

Tick tick tick.

What do we think?

Yes? No?

Another week of wtf-ing at British politics.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
PCPlumsTruncheon · 22/11/2018 08:23

m.youtube.com/watch?v=H6STl4y9_cc

Just wanted to put this here

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 22/11/2018 08:29

Sam Coates Times
@SamCoatesTimes
Times

Labour open to compromise

  • John McDonnell on Newsnight was minimising the scale of the changes to Theresa May’s brexit deal needed to get Lab support. Lab wouldn’t rip it all up, and open to compromise.

This is extremely striking....

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/acf7f8b4-eddf-11e8-bea1-693d823de728

borntobequiet · 22/11/2018 08:35

That’s disgusting. My mother, born in 1916, had memories of the atrocities of the Black and Tans in Co Cork and Co Kilkenny.

On a lighter note, the DUP can’t dance.

Mistigri · 22/11/2018 08:40

Labour is toast if they support the tories on this surely?

ElenadeClermont · 22/11/2018 08:51

Labour is toast with me anyway.

missmoon · 22/11/2018 09:22

Sadly the 'baying mob' of diehard leavers need to be satisfied that the UK leaves. If we don't they will be forever a thorn in the side

They won’t be satisfied with just leaving, they will continue to push for their preferred post-Brexit arrangement. We will be arguing over this for years / decades.

jasjas1973 · 22/11/2018 09:23

I think the days of "oh Jeremy Corbyn" are gone forever if he supports Mays WA, as once that is through, Brexit is assured as will be Labours demise.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2018 09:35

Corbyn thinks that the disastrous effects of a No Deal Brexit will decimate the Tories at the next GE
and give Labour their only chance to reverse all the policies since 1979 and return to a full-on welfare state

Tories fear this, which is why they are tearing themselves apart

They don't give a shit about the effects on the poor & disabled,
but the main aim of the Tory Party, especially since universal suffrage, has always been to stay in power as long as possible, in order to help the wealthiest.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2018 09:42

Jolyon Maugham in the above link expresses the view of many Remainers about fighting as long as Remain is possible,
but once it isn't, then many would settle reluctantly for the WA, rather than No Deal.

Most Remainers are not the kind of fanatics who would regard the most vulnerable as acceptable collateral damage

Corbyn is a lifelong Brexiter; those who convinced themselves that he would push for Remain were as delusional as Leavers - just different unicorns.

Deal with the world, international law and people as they are, not as you wish them to be.

lonelyplanetmum · 22/11/2018 09:44

They will continue to push for their preferred post-Brexit arrangement

This is what completely fascinates me. I have asked and asked Leavers for their views on here and never get a reply.

What is next?

  1. Once we have stopped all the EU migrants what then? Is it job done or do we move on to another category?
  1. There is an A to Z of at least ninety other international organisations we belong to. This ranges from the Artic council to the OECD, UN, UNESCO, WHO even something called the Zangger committee. Which ones are ok in the Leavers' book and which aren't? I would like someone to post a list of them all with a ' Yes' or 'No' next to them.

Where does it stop? You see I really don't believe it will be a case of 'EU membership and EU immigrants ditched. Hurrah. Job done. ' There will be a next stage. What is it?

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2018 09:58

lonely That kind of argument is exactly what turns off most Leavers, when we need to engage at least some of them.

There isn't a coherent master plan, at least not one that most Leavers are aware of, or support

This is because the Leave vote was a protest by a huge range of people against modern Britain:

the Left Behind who can't compete in a global market, some wanting to strike at the successful mc, those wanting to end austerity, English / British nationalists, wealthy boomers who want the world of their youth back, the JAMs, ideological hard-left and hard right who wnat to remake the country
.... and also those who didn't understand the issues or the consequences

What many have in common is that they all feel they won a once-in-a-lifetime against those they regard as a hostile elite
They would be bitterly angry to the end of their days if that victory is taken from them.

Where we can have effect is explaining - not lecturing - on consequences to those who weren't angry and are starting to query Brexit

Re the angry, bitter Leavers - at least don't make them even angrier by questions designed to make them feel stupid
They'll be angry enough if we manage to Remain, so don't wind them up in advance.

1tisILeClerc · 22/11/2018 10:06

Lonely, I have been prattling on about this for a while.
So the 'glorious out' on 29 March and the UK is standing in the street in it's underwear with a collective 'what the hell happens now' expression.
Where are the plans for the new super industries that will herald in the sunny uplands? The UK will have to make up the loss it has already suffered before starting to move forward.

Motheroffourdragons · 22/11/2018 10:09

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Peregrina · 22/11/2018 10:09

Uh oh:
Spain has said it will not agree to the Brexit deal unless changes are made to the wording over Gibraltar.

This is from the BBC website.
Ah those 'easiest deals in history'.

Motheroffourdragons · 22/11/2018 10:13

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Peregrina · 22/11/2018 10:13

BigChoc - I don't think Lonely's questions are aimed at the average Leaver. They are aimed at the Rees-Moggs and Redwoods of the world who spout absolute rubbish but say it with authority, and also the noisy leavers on these threads whose total contribution boils down to 'you lost, get over it, we are leaving, that's democracy' in their eyes at least.

DGRossetti · 22/11/2018 10:16

Re the angry, bitter Leavers - at least don't make them even angrier by questions designed to make them feel stupid

Oh Bwa-ha .... sorry, stupid is as stupid does . I have no inclination to tiptoe around the feelings of people who clearly didn't give a shit about me and my family.

umpteennamechanges · 22/11/2018 10:34

On This Morning a second ago....they said the PM should have been on as a guest today but has sent her apologies and that "all will become clear as to why she couldn't make it today".

Seems we should be expecting something to happen today then?

Any ideas?

Spudlet · 22/11/2018 10:37

Yvette Cooper was a minister at the department I used to work for. She is very sharp. Also, a little scary. But sharp.

DGRossetti · 22/11/2018 10:49

Meanwhile, looks like Black Friday could be quite squibbish ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/22/black_friday_dead_in_uk/

Black Friday may take on a different meaning in 2018 as the consumer shopping bonanza looks set to be an utter flop in the largest economies across Europe.

Based on analysis by CONTEXT of distribution sales volumes into retailers and web-based resellers across a "crucial" six-week period at the start of Q4, the sales growth dial is pointing in the wrong direction.

(contd).

Be interesting to see if the UK is merely in line with the average, or markedly below. Can't say I'm in the market for discounted old tech, or slightly less gougy new tech. (Putting to one side the fact that "tech" is pretty much stalled at 2014 at the moment).

lonelyplanetmum · 22/11/2018 10:53

Interesting about the mysterious "All will become clear" comment regarding 'This morning'.

BCF I completely understand the Left Behind vote, those wanting to end austerity, the English / British nationalists, wealthy boomers who want the world of their youth back, the JAMs, ideological hard-left and hard right who want to remake the country .... and also those who didn't understand the issues or the consequences.
That's a brilliant summary.

But Peregrina is right my question is aimed at the Farages and Rees Mogg, also some posters on here and also three of the Leavers I know personally. All three absolute hate the EU with a completely intense loathing that is illogical given the benefits it also confers. It also doesn't stop with the EU.

We belong to many other international organisations too and I want to get to the bottom of if all international cooperations are equally hated,and if so, why? If they are not reviled in the same way I want to understand that too.
I thought of this when a Leaver I know was annihilating the UN on Facebook. Yes the UN has failed to intervene sometimes in acute war zones, but the good it has done in intervening in famines, the spread of polio, hiv, other disease is vast. Yet my friend's Mum hates the UN like the EU. I'm not trying to be clever- I want to understand which institutions are ok in a leavers' eyes and which aren't.
I don't think ditching EU membership and EU migrants will satisfy the Leavers I know personally. I do want to get a feel for what is next.

PostNotInHaste · 22/11/2018 10:56

Draft agreed apparently www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46300247

FishesaPlenty · 22/11/2018 10:58

That’s disgusting. My mother, born in 1916, had memories of the atrocities of the Black and Tans in Co Cork and Co Kilkenny.

I'm assuming that's a spoof video? It's hardly a loyalist anthem is it?

PostNotInHaste · 22/11/2018 10:59

May will be addressing Parliament late so assumably writing another speech!

DGRossetti · 22/11/2018 11:02

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Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?
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