Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?

[RedToothBrush]

Tick tick tick.

What do we think?

Yes? No?

Another week of wtf-ing at British politics.

It looks like a choice between leaving in a childish harrumph like a 15 year old with lots of noise and an unwillingness to accept reality or leaving like an 18 year old - still no easy but at least you are an adult.

That Peter Foster thread is interesting. The hard Brexiters need a way to save face as they have backed themselves into a corner. If they can sign up to a deal which includes promises over the border that everyone knows can't really be kept, then that gives them the option later down the line to demand that they have been "tricked" cf Ross from Friends into staying in the customs union.

I think some remainers are buying into the rhetoric around EU being difficult and inflexible on their negotiating. I can see how it is easily spun that way, they're not being flexible on the 4 freedoms or the GFA but I don't see why they should be.

We're the ones that want to leave, why the expectation that EU change their fundamental values and facilitate the breaking of an international treaty to accommodate us??

Mrs I picture you staring forlornly out of your kitchen window, mug of tea in hand, gazing at the grey dripping garden and saying that out loud (but not too loud) to yourself. Commiserations!

*Fresh hell...
*
Here's something to bring misery,
The news on the first day of opening your advent calendar is likely to be an anti EU / pro Brexit march. Social media rumours are that it will be organised by the delightful Tommy Robinson accompanied by UKIP leader, Gerrard Batten.

It's rumoured to be in London, really great timing with the Saturday Christmas shoppers. Hope this brings cheer to all.

We can only hope that decent Leavers take a long hard look at who they would be getting into bed with if they are contemplating attending.

I was ruminating yesterday about what people think firtst thing when they wake up. For most, it is a 'get dressed, kids up, breakfast, work/housework whatever.
Not that I am overly sympathetic but what must Mrs May think for those first few seconds of a day. 65 million UK citizens hate me and the rest of the world think I am a prat.
Enough to make anyone turn over and back to sleep.

Here's some more cheer perhaps for Day 2 of advent- it's my news based advent calendar.

Behind this window is the news that consultancy EY has recorded a 31% slump in the number of foreign businesses setting up in the UK..

Apologies if posted last night- I lost track of the thread as had one night away.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/20/britain-boardroooms-brexit-westminster-europe

theGirl Some Remainers, like most Leavers, tend to think that the EU should adapt to the UK, rather than the other way roudnd.

They don't understand the enormous complexity of the most integrated trade bloc in the world, developed over the 60 years since the Treaty of Rome was signed

The EU would have to dismantle itself to give Brexiters its cake - and then the cake would disintegrate

I think many leavers real motivation is not simply leaving the EU but breaking the EU entirely, and honk BREXIT is a route to that.

Yes it's the UK that needs to adapt and it just won't.

I thought the concluding bit of that article was very concise. Nothing that hasn't been said on here a thousand times but very concise...

". A second referendum, in which well-meaning metropolitans offer those in the Rhondda the status quo, probably deserves to fail. Instead, any remain option will have to come with a worked-out argument about rebalancing power in this country. And that means reshaping the relationship between capital and the rest of us."

Leaver RNorth: Scathing forensic analysis dissecting the lies in the ERG claims about WTO rules, presented by Lilley

In case anyone needs to refute Leavers copying his claims that WTO rules would be fine

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87061

...the WTO has in the matter is in its insistence that (with certain exemptions), all goods are treated in the same way.
This applies specifically to countries where there are no formal free trade agreements, so that the goods from country X must be subjected to the same regime as is applied to country Y.
....
the law would never restrict locations to a border because inland airports also handle goods which must be checked.

What the law actually states, therefore is that the BIP must be "located in the immediate vicinity of the point of entry" into the Member State.
And here, one should note the caveat "immediate".
Conveniently, Lilley omits this all-important caveat.
^
But the law does not even stop there.^
It goes on to say that the area in which a BIP is situate must be one "which is designated by the customs authorities in accordance with the first subparagraph, points (a) and (b) of Article 38(1) of Regulation (EEC) No 2913/922^.^

^That effectively means an area designated by the customs authorities and under their supervision.
^...
Rotterdam is not so much a port as a port complex, stretching from the Maas^ estuary at the North Sea end, with the Kloosterboer Delta Terminal, into the heart of the city, with an outpost Dordrecht on the Oude Maas.
In all, it extends over 40 kms from end to end (pictured).
^
Putting this in context, even if the BIP was bang in the centre of the port complex, it would still be 20 km from the "border" – i.e., the seaward edge of the complex.^
As it is, the ERG cannot even get that right.
There are in fact four separate facilities registered with the EU, including one at the Kloosterboer Delta Terminal, right at the entrance to the estuary.
...
The reality is that sanitary inspections and the need for BIPs blows a gaping hole in the ERG case for frictionless trade based on WTO rules and/or free trade areas.

But, being unable to wish away the inconvenient truths, Lilley does the next best thing.
He lies.

Border Inspection Posts

Since MNHQ refuse to think Brexit is important and keep this topic fairly well hidden, perhaps they would get a 'glossary' put up as a 'sticky' on the sidebar of the Brexit threads. Maybe replace the 'latest videos' box. Just on the Brexit pages though, not like Brexit is important.

Almost 700 posts before I’ve even managed to place mark!
Probably the latest ever thank you to. Red.

Not that I am overly sympathetic but what must Mrs May think for those first few seconds of a day. 65 million UK citizens hate me and the rest of the world think I am a prat.

I’m very much afraid she takes a good deal of comfort from the belief she is right and everyone else is wrong...

I wonder if BCF and RTB have a verrsion of an advent calendar that they started 3 years ago with their thoughts about Brexit. Gradually ticking off the 'impediments' they though of as they are revealed by politicians and the serious press. A form of 'Mystic Meg'.

One-third of Brits think US food production standards are higher than UK’s

More than one-third of British shoppers believe food production standards in the US are just as high, if not higher, than the UK’s, according to research from Red Tractor.
www.fginsight.com/news/one-third-of-brits-think-us-food-production-standards-are-higher-than-uks—74817

I am finding the whole withdrawal agreement backlash hugely confusing. As far as I can see, all of the objections are to the natural ramifications of Brexit itself, not the withdrawal agreement. Am I missing something? Because I couldnt see anything extraordinary in it (apart from the horrible consequences of Brexit anyway). I feel like there is an awful lot of political spin and no unbiased analysis. Could anyone point me to the "bad" bits? (Other than Northern Ireland issue, which is hugely worrying if unresolved)

How can this deal be worse than no deal at all?

I voted to remain in case thats important.

Most of those ⅓ will be Ultra Leavers,
who believe this because otherwise they'd have to acknowledge a few of the problems that No Deal would bring.

Maybe too some are part of the post-WW2 generation whose formative experiences were that everything American seemed bigger & better

I had those boomer experiences too and it was a serious shock when I realised how Reagonomics and the following march of the batshit GOP hard right had destroyed the American Dream for its ordinary citizens
They of course blame those on welfare - sounds familiar ?

Lex afaik, only Brexiters think it is worse than No Deal.

The Remainers who object are mainly angry at losing FOM
Businesses - except the few Brexiters - basically say they can live with it

One-third of Brits think US food production standards are higher than UK’s

Not far off the number of Brits who have conducted years of intensive research to form the opinion that the moon landings were faked. Did I say "years of intensive research" ? Sorry, slip of the keyboard. It's really fuck all of fuck all. But they know ....

TL;DR - generally there's a 20% rump of really thick people in any country. It's unpalatable and unmentionable, but just as true. I mean 50% of the population are below average intelligence. (so if there are less then 325 moron MPs, the UK is in credit)

We're probably better of going back to "da feelz". These things never end will with data, facts and logic.