Immigration rules after brexit

[Doubletrouble99]

I for one am really pleased with today's report from the Migration Advisory Committee.
They have outlined exactly what I've been saying all along in that I was against FOM because I feel it is prejudice against people from other parts of the world. I'm really happy that they are saying we should treat everyone the same no matter where they come from.

I would have liked them to have gone further though and answered the questions about how we deal with unskilled labour and seasonal labour.

Do you mean Andrew Lilico Swedish? Certainly not a main stream view.

@Doubletrouble99 , so you mean that you only want to let in those immigrants that are necessary, while making sure British people are soon trained up so that ultimately as few immigrants are needed as possible.
And you're wondering why we're getting the funny idea that your leave vote is related to not have immigrants around.
I think you're lying to yourself if you're under the impression you're welcoming to any immigrant.
'Looks like we need you or can't do without having you for a trade deal, so do come over here, we'll let you know when we don't need you anymore'...

Fawful - Every country in the world has an immigration policy. Only the EU has FOM which is what I and many other leavers are apposed to.
I do not want immigration linked to trade deals at all, that's the whole point. I also want to go much further than the report yesterday and ensure that there is adequate amounts of labour for all areas of business. But I firmly believe we have to ensure we train up lots more of our own population. The selection and qualifications to take up a medical student's place is onerous in the extreme in the UK yet we are more than happy to employ doctors from other countries who have not needed to jump through all these hoops.
The point I am apposed to is the idea that we don't bother to train up our own population and just rely on the trained people from other countries to always fill the gaps. That isn't fair on other countries who have put in massive investment and time in training people who then go on to leave. In the long term the standard of living and wages in the countries we have become accustomed to relying on for their labour improves so people will stop coming. Look at Poland, the standard of living has improved massively and wages are going up so fewer and fewer people will want to come here anyway.

The whole ethos of the EU and it's inclusion of the 'new' eastern block countries is to improve the lives of their citizens and ensure that everyone throughout the EU will have the same opportunities so this current reliance on EU migrants in the west will become untenable in the not too distant future.

That "white commonwealth" idea has had a lot of traction in the rightwing press, Double. I'm surprised you've missed it.

Fawful - Every country in the world has an immigration policy. Only the EU has FOM which is what I and many other leavers are apposed to.

Fair enough. The problem is that FoM is so important to the EU that you're not going to get anywhere near the same access to the markets of the EU if you don't have it. There's no "UK only" option in the bag - nor will there ever be. Look how Switzerland was forced to accept FoM - or no deal.

We're back to cake and eat it again. People want to be prosperous and wealthy but then don't want one of the elements that make up that prosperity and wealth.

So it was all about immigration after all.

The whole ethos of the EU and it's inclusion of the 'new' eastern block countries is to improve the lives of their citizens and ensure that everyone throughout the EU will have the same opportunities so this current reliance on EU migrants in the west will become untenable in the not too distant future.

That's not why there's FoM.

@Double

A sensible post and one i can generally agree with, my beef is that we could do all this without leaving our closest trading block and allies, not training our own workforce or altering how our school system works was a UK decision, you and i might wish to train our own people but it won't happen.

The rumoured new ERG trade proposal with the USA shows Government thinking, FOM between us and the US? you may not like linking FOM to trade but many countries we will be dealing with, will demand it, one reason the EU never had a fta with India, China and the USA.
The far smaller UK wont be able to or even desire not to agree to these demands.

So, i'd rather the EU negotiate FTA's than the likes of Fox or Davis.

Look at what happened when May went to India. She didn't get nearly as positive a welcome as she'd thought she'd get because they told her that trade was linked to the number of visas

Rossetti - the point I was making was that people from other countries won't want to more to the western countries when their lot has improved in their own country so our over reliance on EU workers is short termism.

jasjas, I absolutely agree that the UK could have done all of these things themselves and it has little to do with the EU but we need a jolt and Brexit gives us that. At the moment we are taking the essayist option, using the FOM of the EU to fill all our skills gaps rather than thinking long term and training our own.

At the moment we are taking the essayist option, using the FOM of the EU to fill all our skills gaps rather than thinking long term and training our own.

We need to train more people, agreed, but even if (e.g.) bursaries were introduced/reintroduced and training bumped up, we have an ageing population and therefore need younger people from outside the UK to supplement home-trained workers.

This 'I just want a level playing field' thing is very very disingenuous.

Yes, I find the whole position that poor British people have no education and just happen not to have the right skills a bit much.

There is a lot to complain about re: house prices and the way successive governments have allowed them to become investment vehicles instead of affordable homes. This has impacted how far wages go, quality of life, ability to plan for the future, whether or not people have children.

This is not just a British thing, though. This has happened in all developed countries as the ultra rich from all over the world has chosen to invest in bricks and mortar and driven desirable (or even decent) housing out of reach of the local workforce.

Getting rid of immigrants doesn't change this. There have been a few half hearted policy attempts to help people get housing, but none of them have focussed on housing-as-international-investment-asset. But it's sure kept people focussed on blaming immigrant workers who don't set the wages or the rents, while diverting all attention from the shareholders and landlords.

@Double, i believe every brexitier has said they'll be some disruption to the uk's economy, bluntly that means less investment and public spending in education and spending.

FOM - obviously easier to get workers but in my industry IT, companies bring in predominately Indian workers rather than train up UK staff.
In the NHS, it takes years to train a Doc or a Radiologist, why invest in UK students when you can get the finished article from abroad?

Nothing will change, @Double, jolt or no jolt, as the latest Government commissioned report shows.

Yes, I find the whole position that poor British people have no education and just happen not to have the right skills a bit much.

It's not that. It's just they cost too much and used to have "rights" ...

Pineapple - I never said that 'poor people in Britain didn't have the education or the right skills'.
There's nothing wrong with our education system pre say.
What I am saying is that people are choosing other careers rather than the ones we really need more people to take up.

The hoops you need to jump to get into med. school are onerous because there are so few places. This should not be the case. The bursary system charges for nurses certainly hasn't helped but there were not enough places before that. There are loads of examples of this throughout many professions.

The lack of apprenticeships is another example.

There's nothing wrong with our education system

That's a bold gambit.

There's everything wrong with our education system.

What I am saying is that people are choosing other careers rather than the ones we really need more people to take up.

STEM subjects, basically.

What I am saying is that people are choosing other careers rather than the ones we really need more people to take up

My daughter wanted to be a nurse, there was no problem getting on a course and she didn't mind the tuition fees ... however, after asking around about the working conditions, the night shifts, weekend work, stress, responsibility and then the derisory pay, she decided to do something else.
This is SFA to do with the EU, this is deliberate UK government policy, over many Parliaments and Governments, it is cheaper to get Nurses from abroad or do without.

My daughter wanted to be a nurse, there was no problem getting on a course and she didn't mind the tuition fees ... however, after asking around about the working conditions, the night shifts, weekend work, stress, responsibility and then the derisory pay, she decided to do something else.

Rinse and repeat for similar professions.

However, when DS was being encouraged to go to university, the guy presenting chose someone who got a degree in Media and Politics and was earning £40,000 a year aged 23 for a US advertising agency.

I'm sure your average leave voter had no inclination to do these things though so they won't give a shit if the rest of us can't either

Saw a tweet yesterday that confirmed this. People talking about Brexit meaning the young had their EU citizenship taken away from them and they were too young to vote in the referendum.

Someone tweets "why are their rights more important than mine? I don't want to be an EU citizen anymore, that's what i voted for".

The dog in the mangerism is quite breathtaking.

I don't like Chinese food but I don't suggest all Chinese restaurants should be closed down, I just don't go to them.

So Ms Leaver, couldn't you just decide not to use your EU rights but allow others to continue to?

people are choosing other careers rather than the ones we really need more people to take up

This is a subject for a different thread but perhaps people aren't taking up STEM careers because they are not interested in such careers and their talents lie elsewhere? There's no way I would have wanted a STEM career and it would not have suited my skillset.

I can't help but think that FoM between the USA and the UK will largely one way. The Brexiters love the idea because they are thinking of the 'Anglosphere'. I wonder how they will like it if mostly Hispanic or black Americans took up the offer to come here?

I wonder how they will like it if mostly Hispanic or black Americans took up the offer to come here?

They'd be the first to emigrate, I suspect.