Westministenders: High Drama at The Ok Coral

[RedToothBrush]

3:00 p.m. Wednesday, October 26, 1881, Tombstone, Arizona.

After months of death threats from the Cowboy Billys, their long simmering feud with the law thing came to a head. The Earp Brothers and Doc Holliday faced the criminals down in a shootout.

Tomorrow's 'sleepover' is starting to feel like the Gunfight at the OK Coral.

The outcome of the real story was three of the outlaws were killed. Another two claimed they were unarmed and ran from the fight. Virgil, Morgan, and Doc Holliday were wounded, but Wyatt Earp was unharmed.

How many Brexiteers can we expect to roll over and resign from the Cabinet and how many will surrender to May and the Pro-Business lobby? ONly time will tell.

Please place your bets for the number of resignations and the number of 'I support the PM' comments.

But don't get too excited. The showdown wasn't the end of the matter.

One of the outlaws who legged it, filed murder charges against the Earps and Doc Holliday. It took them some time for them to be acquitted.

Then Virgil Earp was ambushed and disabled in the arm later that year in December and Morgan Earp was assassinated in March 1882. Wyatt Earp, then thinking he had no other option, went on a personal vendetta to kill the outlaws and then fled the state.

Given the Tory Cabinet and the perchant for stabbing each other in the back and settling personal scores, a repeat of a wild west gun fight, really doesn't sound too wildly off the cards now does it?

Buckle up. Its time to play at Chequers.

A no-deal Brexit may blight the economy for a generation
I cannot estimate the political consequences of such a national trauma

Actually because if the huge political crisis that would go with it, I’m actually unsure if the democratic process itself would resist a no-deal Brexit.
Esp as the Brexit bill has manoeuvred things so that Parliament has less powers.
A lot of stuff in place on the grounds of controlling immigrations and counter terrorisms (I’m thinking checks on the Internet , facial scanning on rallies, regular checks done by lay people beignthe norm- eg checking if you legally have access to the NHS done by a secretary, Respect etc etc). A lot of things are now ‘normal’. A small change would be enough to use all these systems to a different ‘purpose’.

We've discussed the classic example of bad decisons turning a 1st world country into a permanent basket case: Argentina

Or consider the Irish potato famine - the whole island of Ireland has only recently recovered to the same level of population as it had then. These threads have also taught me that many of us can find we have some Irish ancestry, and that the people came over in the mid 19th Century. Or ask yourself why there is a large Irish diaspora in the US.

So we too could be in for a long 100 year haul - only my grandson is likely to be alive then, and I expect him to have gone and lived elsewhere.

a few other on the fencers and brexiteers even may shift to a remain stance after today
Myname hope so. There are lots of nice 'remainer now' folks who've had a change of mind.

Dominic Greave MP , quietly preparing the nation for the fact it isn't going to happen

frumpety It may be a countdown to Tory MPs voting on a confidence motion on May's leadership
or to the govt collapsing in the hope that Corbyn will accept the poisoned Brexit chalice

I don't expect any serious move to revoke A50 unless several major businesses each actually send out 1000s of redundancy notices before Brexit.

If there is a no-deal Brexit, I expect a panicked request for Norway+ within a couple of months
but I doubt if the EU would let us rejoin for the next 20 years.

A certain section of Leavers have won and have achieved nearly everything they set out to do.

They wanted to give Cameron a bloody nose and destroy the Conservative party in revenge for Austerity.

And don't forget the Heil has a change of editor coming up, who was a Remainer, and might just shift the dialogue.

Yes, Lexiters have won
We now have to see how much collateral damage in the whole country

Appointing Rabb to head DexEU is a signal that May is backing down before the Ultras
A Remain still looks unlikely on her watch

Olenna _ I agree. I think The Day After, there were an awful lot of people going 'Ah. I wasn't expecting that'....

Now, controversy alert: I am a Remainer. Not a rabid Euro-lover; I get that the EU is bloated, I get that a lot of policies favour Germany, I get the whole 'gravy train' thing; but I also get 70 years without war, and Putin at the gates, with the big orange baby in the White House.

However, I believe it's too late to 'stop Brexit', to reverse it. Far too much damage has been done. We've revealed our dark, nasty underbelly, there's no way back to where we were before. I also believe that Britain could do with the spanking that's coming its way. Sadly, people will need to actually hurt to recognise the benefits of international pacts and relationships, complete with the concomitant responsibilities. People are going to have to learn that Britain has been permitted to punch above its weight for decades, centuries. It has seats at tables that history alone has afforded it. It basks in a long past glory.

Maybe a new, meritocratic, more equal society will emerge from this debacle? Although it may take decades for this to emerge.

Fortunately my family all hold forrin (tho non-EU) passports....

i am not sure that I agree there Tanith. Give Cameron a bloody nose yes. Destroy the Tory party in revenge for Austerity - no. No because they are all extremely wealthy and won't be the ones to suffer from austerity.

woman I’ve been full circle at this point in a bid to fully understand both sides of the coin and now we have ‘all’ the facts on what Brexit will look like, I can’t with any great confidence continue to be optimistic about it.

There’s no such thing as a remainer any more because I don’t think remain is ever an option now. To ignore the original referendum would be to overrule democratic process and would also send the message that leaving the EU is impossible for all and for ever. I don’t even think we can be anti-Brexit anymore, aren’t we beyond that? I think we can only be realists.

Fair enough MyNameDefinatelyIsntJanet interesting posts though, thanks.

Maybe a new, meritocratic, more equal society will emerge from this debacle? Although it may take decades for this to emerge.

I agree, it will take at least a generation. I am of the baby boomer generation and we can still expect to be around for 20 - 30 years (although we will all be well into our dotage by then) and it will be when we have gone. I recollect at school in the late 50s some of our teachers were besotted with stories of Empire and the White Commonwealth. Even while the Union Jack was being lowered in the countries of the black and brown commonwealth.

If my own DCs are typical - in their 30s - their history has featured Hitler and Nazism, ad nauseum it seems. I know I have said this before (about a year ago) but when studying history A level I recall thinking that some things which were huge issues, just fizzled out a generation or two later.

Ah we will have to agree to disagree BigChoc , I see the tide turning against Brexit, its like a dam wall breaking , a tiny chink in the wall, soon followed by a flood. Drip drop, tick tock.

After DD only attending 4 hrs of talks in 6 months …

Margaritis Schinas, the European Commission’s chief spokesman said
the Commission was “available 24/7”, including over the summer, to discuss Brexit

Is it too much to hope that the UK govt will give up its long summer break and actually do some bloody work on Brexit ?

I hope I'm wrong, frumpety

I don't think that ignoring the Referendum would be overruling a democratic process. We still have a parliamentary democracy and if subsequent GE manifestos made it clear that there were other options, and these were voted for, then the mandate of the Referendum would have expired.

Tom Newton Dunn @ tnewtondunn
It appears Theresa May is currently asking Jeremy Hunt to be her new Foreign Secretary. Will he refuse that promotion too? Surely not...

J.K. Rowling
J.K. Rowling
@jk_rowling
This is what happens when you have men in government who've been raised from birth to believe it's someone else's job to clean up after them. They throw tantrums when they finally make a mess no-one can fix. #Brexit

There’s no such thing as a remainer any more because I don’t think remain is ever an option now

Yes remain is an option. And I will be a remainer until I die.

No one is talking about 'overturning the referendum'. A people's vote asks a different question. It says 'here are the terms on which we will leave -if we leave - yay or nay?'
It is not overturning democracy. It is democracy. Democracy is an ongoing conversation - a process which is never finished. New facts arise, events happened , people are allowed to decide they want something different.
To quote a man who resigned today 'a democracy which cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy.'
It is right and proper that the people of this country get a chance to decide if what is on offer (really on offer - not unicorns) is good enough, rather than having something forced on them from above. None of what is happening was on anyone's ballot paper back in 2016 - and if this is truly a democracy, then the people are allowed to look at today and think ... hang on a minute...

If 'the will of the people' of one referendum had to be respected, with no ongoing conversation or opportunity to change - then that referendum was held in 1975, not 2016. If it was part of a democracy to hold a referendum in 2016 - then we can hold another - at any point in time - once enough has changed to make it worthwhile. I would suggest that brexit being undeliverable and project fear becoming project reality classes as 'enough has changed.'
But it still won't be a rerun - it will be a different question - 'do you want these terms?'

The cat has been let out of the bag - businesses have fled, the economy has been hit. No we can't go back to where we were. But that doesn't mean that we have to lunge desperately down this path. We can't go back - but we can change direction. It won't be as it was pre 2016 - but we can rebuild and restructure. And what we end up with might turn out to be better and fairer than it was before.

But remain remains an option up until the moment we leave.

Apathy is our worst enemy at the moment. And publicly declaring that remain can't happen (when it can) plays right into arch brexiteer hands - as it discourages others to keep on fighting. The fight has been ongoing for 2 years, the tide was already turning - and now the shit has hit the fan. Now is the time to push harder - not to tell people that remain can't happen. It can.

I have no regard for Hunt. But I don’t believe he’d bail on Health.

Well BigChoc , here's the thing and one which a few departing Conservative Ministers would do well to remember, there are far worse things than being wrong

Laura Kuennsberg @ bbclaurak
Hunt went in to Number 10 at half eight - def easier for him to leave Health after getting the funding deal

Will thousands of doctors and nurses let out a cheer in the near future ...

... Before groaning in desparation at who Hunt is replaced by?

Oh well, I’m often wrong.