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Brexit

Westminstenders: From Russia with Love

996 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2018 21:11

Things just got scary.

The colony of US puppet state or a vassel state of the EU?

Why not just let market forces take their course and let Russia buy the UK?

How did we get to stories of spies and mafia who buy politicians?

Just who are our enemies and allies?

Won't someone think of the effect on house prices in Salisbury?

Try not to don your foil hat, brace yourself and resist shouting 'money laundering too loud'.

More turbulence ahead.

Brexit still seems like such a cracking idea doesn't it?

OP posts:
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Dobby1sAFreeElf · 17/03/2018 20:34

Sorry if someone else has posted this

www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/data-war-whistleblower-christopher-wylie-faceook-nix-bannon-trump?CMP=share_btn_tw
Latest by Caroline Cadwalla
BREAKING: It's taken a long & exhausting year to get Christopher Wylie out and on the record. Here, finally, is his truly extraordinary insider's view of making 'Steve Bannon's psychological warfare tool'

Sostenueto · 17/03/2018 20:36

Second that Violet.

Sostenueto · 17/03/2018 20:38

He is the leader of the opposition and should have clearance for it. He is not a communist.

ladypontipine · 17/03/2018 20:43

Cambridge Analytica and Christopher Wylie - Channel 4 News led with it this evening, Dobby. It seems to be getting a lot of coverage.

Mightybanhammer · 17/03/2018 20:44

I don't think it is naive to imagine the government has far more information than has been released publically.

However I do think it is naive to call for full disclosure, and call conspiracy if it does not happen. Who knows what or who or which sources may be fatally compromised as a result.

frumpety · 17/03/2018 20:46

I know that Sos but there will be plenty of people who believe otherwise Hmm

Violetparis · 17/03/2018 20:49

I agree Mightybanhammer but I think the leader of the opposition should have the same info as the party in power.

Violetparis · 17/03/2018 20:54

I hope tomorrow Andrew Marr, Robert Peston etc raises the question as to whether Corbyn has access to the same info as Corbyn, we shall see.

Violetparis · 17/03/2018 20:56

Same access as Theresa May that should say.

RedToothBrush · 17/03/2018 21:14
  1. Why did May withhold information she was allowed to withhold?

a) Yes it could be for her own political gain.

b) It could also be because she was concerned about Corbyn's previous track record and political relationships with foreign countries. Or she was concerned about his relationship with Russian Sympathisers - namely Milne (more on that later).

People do believe that Corbyn was a foreign agent. Rightly or wrongly.

What if May is one?

Saying that 'anyone with a sense of fairness would think deliberately withholding info is dodgy' misses the point that a lot of people have a distrust of Corbyn and question his foreign policy - including amongst Labour MPs, never mind members or the wider public.

I think there is an argument for both a and b here.

  1. If May used this for her own personal gain, then Corbyn walked into it.

Corbyn might have had a point if he thought that information had been withheld via the security clearance on the privy council. However he didn't make that point in the Commons. He was happy not to make the point explicitly against May's judgment over that. Why?

Therefore Corbyn either deliberately walked into the situation for his own political gain, or he is predictable to the point that it can be manipulated and that's what May did.

If its the latter, Corbyn is by default politically naïve or vulnerable. He should have seen the situation coming. That is a major weakness should he become PM, that could be manipulated.

If its the former, then he also manipulated the situation.

  1. May might be a fucking nasty malicious piece of work. On this I do not disagree. I think she lacks any heart whatsoever. But then she's not alone in that respect in terms of national leaders. And this is what any PM is going to be dealing with.

Can you be a 'Nice Guy' when it comes to Foreign Policy and dealing with certain leaders?

If you can't deal with May and the Tory propaganda machine, can you deal with foreign leaders who don't give a shit about their citizens or the truth and for whom power alone is everything?

How do you ensure you really aren't a 'useful idiot'?

  1. Hat Gate. Most of the shocked reaction had fuck all to do with a dodgy photo on Newsnight.

All the MP reaction - both Labour and Con - and the news coverage came well before 10.30pm.

Hat gate is retrospective damage control. I do agree, there is a point here and the BBC DID use that image in a way that is dubious.

However, you also have to take into context that Corbyn and McDonnell have never previously had a problem doing speeches to crowds where individuals have flown soviet flags. In the mind of the public, Corbyn has already long been associated with that imagery in actual photos.

Corbyn is also well aware of Milne's position on Russia

Lets talk about Milne. Its important:

Milne started off after uni as the Business Manager of Straight Left.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_Left

He's written books, criticising the British Security Services, and clearly has a long running issue with them, which may or may not be justified but this needs to be noted.

In 2001 he wrote this piece:
www.theguardian.com/world/2001/aug/16/russia.comment
It rather romanticises the idea of Stalin. And whilst Milne isn't wrong about how hard its been for Russia since the fall of the State, he also neglects to mention a rather large and relevant part of the story in his romanticising.

Then there's this article from 2015 when Milne became the Labour Party Spokesman.
www.politico.eu/article/stalinist-voice-of-labour-seumas-milne-jeremy-corbyn-putin/
Again it mentions how Milne down plays Stalin. If someone were in denial of the holocaust we'd be up in arms about it. But deaths under Stalin? Naaaa.... that's ALLLLLL FINE.

Then there's this from 2011 - about the resignation of Gott from the Guardian and the Soviet defector Oleg Gordievsky and 'useful idiots'.
ukmediawatch.org/2011/10/10/kgb-agents-loved-the-guardian/
KGB agents loved the Guardian

Then there's this from 2016 in the Mail
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3614553/Criticism-Putin-censored-Corbyn-aide-Seumas-Milne-blocks-anti-Russia-briefing-note-Labour-MPs.html
It stated the following:

Jeremy Corbyn’s hard-Left spin chief censored a Labour document on the EU referendum to remove all references to Russian aggression.

The Mail on Sunday has been told that Seumas Milne, the pro-Kremlin head of communications for the Labour leader, became angry when he saw a briefing note which had been prepared for the party’s MPs telling them what ‘lines to take’ on the debate.

The memo said the MPs should include arguments about security when opposing Brexit – and in particular that leaving the EU would weaken the West’s ability to stand up to Vladimir Putin.

Now its possible this is all part of a right wing capitalist plot against Milne. BUT at the same time, you have to be a Stalin Purge denier and you have to also concede this is long running dating back to Milne's university days in the 1970s (noting here that Milne was a Philosophy, Politics and Economics student at Oxford like pretty much all the 'establishment' he rallies against).

This isn't some new political issue that's comes from nowhere. Its long standing and pre-dates Milne being part of the Labour leadership.

In that context, and given everything Milne has said - including his positions on Georgia and Ukraine - May would have a bloody hard time justifying giving Corbyn who is so closely allied to Milne, top level security clearance over an issue relating to Russia.

Milne has form for justifying anything relating to the Soviet Union and Russia for decades. To the point that some think he, himself, is an agent. (No idea if this is justified, but its certainly been said).

How could May say to the right wing media or parts of her party that she'd given Corbyn top clearance?

At that point you ask, is she covering her arse politically every bit as much as she might be manipulating the situation?

The answer could easily be both.

I'm not setting out here to justify May, nor to smear Corbyn, but the dynamics here over Corbyn's friends and allegiances - rightly or wrongly - can not be over looked either.

The history is conflict of ideology, that is, in this situation quite difficult to ignore.

The real motivations and political agendas of both May and Corbyn might not be totally visible but regardless of what the truth is, I can see reasons why giving Corbyn that clearance would be problematic in more than one scenario.

All it is, is yet another manifestation of the polarisation of politics in the UK where the leader of the opposition is at such odds to the PM that national security is even entering the equation.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/03/2018 21:16

It is May's responsibility as PM to defend the nation.

Its not Corbyn's as leader of the opposition. The difference is important.

OP posts:
Mightybanhammer · 17/03/2018 21:24

Brilliant brilliant post RTB.

Violetparis · 17/03/2018 21:27

I'll go with your point a) Red.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 17/03/2018 21:33

red as ever

RedToothBrush · 17/03/2018 21:33

He is not a communist

One of his closest advisors was (is?) and he has hung out with communists and done rallies where there have been lots of people with communist flags.

Difficult to get away from. If we were talking far right that extremist association would be a problem.

OP posts:
Sostenueto · 17/03/2018 21:48

OK I see what you mean red.

Sostenueto · 17/03/2018 21:53

Surely though if you are the opposition, how can you support the government when you should if you dont have all the information? Surely in a situation like this May should want the support of all the HOC? Just because the PM says something is so, you can't agree unless you have the same info?
Corbyn was in a lose lose position really.

Peregrina · 17/03/2018 21:56

I too am of the opinion that Theresa May will go an overplay her hand. I am quite sure that people who operate on an international stage which the leaders like May, Macron, and Merkel do, need to be both hard headed but at the same time, have the ability to read people. This is something which May singularly lacks. Take the crowing triumphalism of the 2016 Tory Conference, which probably convinced her she was invincible, and then contrast it with the shambles the following year, because of the problems as much caused by her unnecessary and botched election, because 2016 went to her head and she wasn't wise enough to listen to a range of advice.

mathanxiety · 17/03/2018 22:04

Wow, 'nearly $1 million' spent by Cambridge Analytica.

They bought an election for peanuts. The Clinton campaign raised $581 million.

...........
I am going with your Number 3 there, RTB. No matter what May believes about members of the Parliamentary Labour Party, the decision not to include the leader of the opposition in an extremely important briefing was not parliamentary behaviour, and it should backfire.

What the decision does is make it look as if TM is making political hay here, as if a great big plum fell into her lap and she made the most of it. She looks as if she is exploiting a crime for party political benefit. The BBC photo underlines the 'subtlety of a sledgehammer' nature of her approach.

Above all, there are shades of not trusting a traitor here that echo all the headlines about the judiciary.

This is a sad day for British political culture, but not a surprising one.

I believe Theresa May is a very dangerous fascist.

Sostenueto · 17/03/2018 22:12

Good point mathanxiety and I totally agree.
Yes I hope it does backfire. But what's to betting no one tomorrow on t.v will mention it.

mrsreynolds · 17/03/2018 22:17

She's not too bright is she?

mathanxiety · 17/03/2018 22:19

Lonelyplanetmum
It said upthread that these devastating chemicals 'were developed in the 70s and 80s by Vil Mirzayanov among others, who now lives as an exile in the US. He was so horrified that he went public an eventually to jail in Russia^
'Novichok' is a generic term given to a family of organophosphorus acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. They look like this. The structure on the right is A-232 3/ [ no picture]

VX in comparison looks like this. It has a different chemical structure. Just by looking at the structure, a chemist can tell you what the mass, infrared, NMR, UV and other spectra are likely to look like with a high degree of confidence.

All this is known, and no western lab has ever tried to reproduce it? It was so well known that it was identified immediately? No western government has ever been tempted to make its own?

The aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union saw so much 'distribution' of military hardware and substances and formulae that the international community stepped in to try to halt the madness and also to try to take advantage.
articles.latimes.com/1991-11-10/news/mn-2123_1_soviet-union
...addressing potential Soviet arms proliferation on a Cable News Network television program, [Defense Secretary Dick Cheney] warned of "individuals who've got technical expertise going to work for other countries, and possibly even the flow of some of those weapons themselves to third parties."

Before the collapse it was much more expensive to buy Soviet technical secrets:
www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1994/02/14/poland-helped-us-buy-soviet-weapons/d9473a35-7dcc-404e-b75a-562700a91574/
Polish officials also provided an antidote kit that had been issued to Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan to protect them against their own chemical weapons, sources said. By analyzing the kit, the Pentagon could determine more precisely the nature of the Soviet chemical threat.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 17/03/2018 22:20

More from Carole Cadwalladr
www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/cambridge-academic-trawling-facebook-had-links-to-russian-university?CMP=share_btn_tw
NEW: Cambridge Analytica’s Russia connections

woman11017 · 17/03/2018 22:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman11017 · 17/03/2018 22:42

I'm going to have that post deleted. ^ I looked into the writer in more detail.

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