Aibu to despair

[DorothyL]

Talking to some people tonight who are fluent in European languages, widely travelled, worldliwise -

and they said Barnier's stubbornness and the EU's tone is ruining everything.

Ffs

I give up

Why do remainers always assume a 2nd referendum would go their way?
There’s no guarantee that would happen

I'm not assuming a second referendum would stop Brexit. I do think it could clarify the issue as so be more likely to be fought on facts and not supposition.

One of the issues we face is the lack of clarity about what Brexit means.

Why do remainers always assume a 2nd referendum would go their way?

Because, assuming the question was correctly worded, only those who are minted would choose the option that made them less well off.

Things are becoming increasingly toxic towards the EU. There may come a point where they simply say that the UK has burned its bridges. It's difficult to imagine this country becoming enthusiastically pro-EU - if we re-joined in the near future, the right-wingers would continue to make a lot of trouble.

The parallel Remain Universe where no countries ever break up or reunite cos it would just be too hard. Where no countries ever peg their currencies or create new ones or integrate or disintegrate their central banks. Just not my experience of life over the last 50 years.

Not sure what your point is howabout. Germany managed to reunite successfully within the EU.

Leaving the EU is going to be hard and if it was for some clear long term goal - like German reunification was - then absolutely dig in and fight. But Brexit has no clear long term goal that will result in positive benefits for the U.K.. Wishy washy terms like 'freedom' are thrown around but no tangible benefits are mentioned.

I'm a Remainer, I think another referendum in next 12 months would be another narrow Leave. I certainly don't want another referendum unless it's a resounding Remain. Nothing else would settle the matter.

I dont want another referendum - don't think they should have had the first one. I think the bloody politicians should be putting the country first though and admitting this cannot be done without causing huge damage to the economy and putting peace in Ireland in jeopardy.

@TheyBuiltThePyramids

No cojones for that I'm afraid. No leadership. So it will come back to the people.

But if the people vote wrong again... then what? John Major said the other week that not only should we be unafraid to speak truth to power - but that the government need to be unafraid to speak truth to the people. People like him, and Michael Hessletine and Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Alister Campbell, Nick Clegg are all fighting tooth and nail - but in the end this government needs to grow up and say 'you know that thing you wanted? well you can't have it - it's impossible. Sorry'. Even if it toppled the govt it would save the country and ultimately they would be remembered well for doing it. They can even pin all the blame on Cameron - he should never have offered a referendum on an impossible thing. Make a scapegoat of him. Except he isn't really a scapegoat because it is his fault.

I can't believe that the names I just listed are the heroes of today. What world are we living in that thatcherites and the man responsible for the Iraq war are the only political voices speaking the truth?

I don't see remain winning a second referendum. Not unless the terms of the deal were nailed down tight - no room for unicorns, no room for lies - this is the clear choice. But the govt aren't getting a deal and without stopping the a50 clock there is no time for a second referendum.

I'm beginning to think either crash out or an eleventh hour halt to proceedings are the two options now. I hope the govt go with the second one, but I don't trust them to do it... and I'm not sure my nerves can last another year of this.

The parallel Remain Universe where no countries ever break up or reunite cos it would just be too hard. Where no countries ever peg their currencies or create new ones or integrate or disintegrate their central banks.

Have any EU countries broken up since joining the EU?
Have any countries left the Euro since joining it? Or left the central bank?
Because what happens to countries already outside the world's largest single market isn't really relevant to what is likely to happen to countries inside the world's largest single market is it? It's comparing apples to Oranges. As is comparing the political landscape 50 years ago with the political landscape of today.

Have you got an answer to my question from yesterday yet howabout? Or any leaver that thinks they could help out? Would be much appreciated as I am very worried and would love a share of your knowledge.

Spain is having a pretty good go atm. No-one during Indyref1 gave much credence to the argument that Scotland couldn't break up the UK because it was in the EU. The UK was forced out of the ERM. Recapitalising Greece would be the rational approach to its unsustainable debt.

I think what is happening in the US is going to be pretty relevant to how the EU interacts with the rest of the World going forward actually.

So 'No' is the answer. After the trouble in Catalan, their leader handed himself in to the Belgian police. Scotland didn't go independent - a lot of which was down to Scotland wanting to remain in the EU. Indieref 2 is being talked about because we are leaving. Britain was kicked out of the ERM in 1992. The Euro wasn't introduced until 1999 - so this didn;t happen in the context of a central bank with unified money. It happened in the context of competing currencies, which the EU got rid of to better aid integration of the single market. Apples and oranges again. Whatever might be the 'rational' thing to do with Greece in your humble opinion - they haven't done it. It hasn't happened.

So no. The answer to all my questions was 'no.' It is your world where countries break up or create new currencies or disintegrate their central bank within the world's largest single market which is a parallel fantasy.

Speaking of all my questions - any answers on how Brexit is going to work yet?

YANBU. Our idiocracy is quite depressing.