Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Groundhog Day

994 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2018 16:20

Groundhog day is 2nd Feb.

Its also today. And yesterday. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before.

We have all turned into Bill Murray.

That's Brexit in the UK.

The only progress seems to be linguistic gymnastics not policy.

No action has been implemented, we are still on words going nowhere.

Tick tock, tick tock.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
woman11017 · 16/02/2018 21:05

Flowers cat and bigchoc!

SusanWalker · 16/02/2018 21:13

m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/young-conservative-fight-police-westminster_uk_5a86cbe2e4b05c2bcac9d82b?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

Shows what kind of people the conservatives attract.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/02/2018 21:24

Germans, like most of the E27, are happy to pay taxes for the staff and the infrastructure to support a good health system with prompt service.

We need to change attitudes in the UK, away from "I'm all right Jill"
When the NHS started, the country was in ruin & rubble, people were broke and suffering years of rationing, but they were prepared to pay more tax to help themselves and others have decent healthcare.

Now people keep demanding we first stop all the big companies avoiding tax and stop all waste in the NHS.
Neither can possibly happen completely, so such people are just using these as socially acceptable excuses for not wanting to pay for others.

Somehow, these same people don't refuse to pay for Trident, warships or warplanes until all waste in the military is stopped (HUGE), or those companies are forced to pay a fairer tax

woman11017 · 16/02/2018 21:55

BigChoc This tweet pretty much sums up british 'public services' at the moment.
@JulesDaulby
Just come from a funeral where 6 carers on minimum wage and zero hour contracts came to say goodbye to the man they had looked after - not because they had to
not because they got paid
just because they cared - the country is being propped up by women such as these #sheroes
lala's guardian long read, sounds like what we have now.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/02/2018 22:15

Amazing story, woman Those marvellous women are what keep the system afloat
(but how much longer can the system depend on women giving more & more to receive less & less)

Thanks to the nmw heroes in the care system

BigChocFrenzy · 16/02/2018 22:16

#sheroes Thanks

thecatfromjapan · 16/02/2018 22:18

Agree. I love the NHS. I can't bear what's happening to it.

And thanks woman. Smile

QuentinSummers · 16/02/2018 22:20

Is this Agent Cob/Corbyn being a Czech spy a squirrel? I don't understand why it's come out now. It goes to show how crazy times are that I think it won't make a bit of difference to him, when really it should finish him off.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/02/2018 22:41

There've been so many squirrels let loose that if ever something comes out that is genuine and important … most Labour voters will ignore it.
Crying Wolf is very short-sighted.

BiglyBadgers · 16/02/2018 22:52

The whole Corbyn the Spy thing is so bizarre that I really can't see it changing any minds. The people who will take it seriously are people who would never have voted for him anyway.

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2018 23:24

I am not sure we can deduce that tbh. I think there are huge dangers in ascribing attitudes and values to a particular group without robust evidence.

Ive been looking at the detail of the latest yougov Westminster voting intent survey and comparing it with the last few and earlier surveys there are some interesting consistencies:

  1. you need to understand that the average weekly yougov poll does not count undecided and wont votes in calculating its headline figures.

This is different to the last few polls before an election, where the art of getting the poll right, is accurately predicting turn out and deciding what the behaviour of the dont knows was going to be at the polling booth.

Yougov of course proved to be the most successful at this.

  1. There is currently a pretty consistent 20% of women who are not sure how they will vote. Thats a hell of a lot of voters who could be turned potential swing voters.

Traditionally they do tend to lean more labour, but most pollsters underestimated this at the GE. They were caught out by a larger than expected swing to labour amongst 25 - 50 year old women. This was felt by some to be the fatal blow for the Tories.

Notably this compares to 9% dont knows for me.

The fact that so many are unconvinced by either party makes striving to set policy for women in this age group is particularly important.

They MIGHT be more likely to vote Labour. But I'd be extremely weary of the assumption of the degree to which that women will definitely behave the same way on the next election day compared with the last one. Why? Because of the groups which are most likely to be the don't knows and the stay at homes. And because them are not being convinced by either May or Corbyn.

Labour should be walking the polls.

The size of the don't know category means it hides any statisfically shift in leanings.

  1. There does seem to be something of significantly weaker and less solid support for Cirbtn versus May. It means Labour can not afford to complacent nor desreguard the womens vote. The young arent necessarily as loyal as it been suggested.

Labour will have to work hard on reassuring women voters and valuing their input. They can taKe any of the vote for granted.

  1. The 'don't know' option is interesting when broken down by age. 'Dont know was high in the two youngest groups and lowest in the over 65s.

  2. The wont vote at all answer to each group, dudnt show much of a difference between all the groups apart from one. The 25-50 year olds were significantly less likely to vote than the other groups. At the last election the lowest turnout was in the under 25s instead. This is important fir a couple of reasons.

This group is the bulk of your working population, its your parents, it people trying or have the most pressing concerns about the housing market, its your remainers. Its your 'centerist dads' who neither party is managing to persuade.

This age group is interesting because its spread out more, rather than concerntrated in particular constituencies. This makes their votes potentially more influencak. Just 72 vites across a number of marginals made the difference between a tory majority and a hung parliament.

Conclusion
How the labour vote is weaker than it should be in certain groups and there is a sense of taking votes for grantef by Labour.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-party-women-support-decline-why-brexit-bullying-transgender-rights-a8213576.html This article from today talks about the growing resentment of cloth eared men in Labour.

Its inaccurate in how it analyses the yougov polls, but the fact that women are pissed at how they are being taken for granted is getting a mainstream medium airing and is being noticed.

The labour vote is crucially soft. No one has won over the most votitile 25 -50 and potentially least loyal voters.

Beyond that, it doesnt say a great deal else. The weakness is there to see and spans a number of key issues to that group.

The Cons could try and supress that vote or court it. I suspect we'll get bother. Wimen have a disportionately most valuable and important decision to make over how they vote compared with men.

Treating women with respect isnt being seen to be done.

We cant say exactly what is the descisive issue us. If anything its a cumlitive effect.

Yougov survey therefore is imporatant as it is littered with the odd bit here and there which offer more clues to what is going on below the visible surface.

Make of that what you will.

(Hope this makes sense. Ive fallen asleep three times in the course of trying to write it!)

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/02/2018 23:30

Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (ira) anti seminite (pro pakestine) and iranian agent

None of which are sticking.

Gavin Williamson called him a terrorist sympathetiser in the HoC today.

Ive seem one opinion peice today make the point that what williamson said was eireely reministant to what darren Osborne the finsbury mosque attacker said in court about corbyn.

Which is seriously not cool.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/02/2018 23:53

Very interesting that it is the 25-50 age group - as you posted, much of the working population - that are so unenthusiastic about voting for anyone.
They are most of the ones who will have to work, to do some of what other people voted for

EmilyAlice · 17/02/2018 05:34

Just to clarify - I was talking specifically about the YouGov poll that asked young and old (and not the age group in between) a question about “National Service” for one month. I really don’t think you can deduce anything much from that particular poll.
The broader trends suggest to me that people are deeply disenchanted with the current crop of politicians and parties and don’t know how to vote.
I don’t know many Brexiters in my (over 65) age group, but I am told by others that many of them have gone very quiet. I think if the realities of the consequences Brexit could be clearly explained and given some media space and time then the mood might start to change.
I hope so.

DGRossetti · 17/02/2018 07:39

I'd guess that anyone under 40 doesn't really get the IRA sympathiser accusation .... 1997 is 21 years ago now. That's an entire two generations of mainland Britons who either have never known, or can't remember the 70s and 80s ....

mathanxiety · 17/02/2018 07:41

Sometimes I dive into a Guardian rabbit hole and find items that I consider really interesting. Thought I would share this, in the context of the Aileen Hammond language and terms of reference - the basic metaphor of 'the economy' as a bucket (and therefore a finite thing) is something I have long observed here on MN.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/16/anguage-austerity-economic-policy The power of language to create a narrative that is very hard to dismantle.

b.3cdn.net/nefoundation/a12416779f2dd4153c_2hm6ixryj.pdf
New Economics Foundation
"Framing the Economy: The Austerity Story"

It's basically how the Conservatives capitalised on fear and ignorance to sell austerity to those who stood to lose everything because of the policy and how the usual Tory support lapped up the narrative.

The only surprise about the Brexit vote is that it squeaked by with such a small majority.

frumpety · 17/02/2018 07:58

I am in the 25-50 age bracket , I am really struggling to know who to vote for in any election anymore , there are maybe a handful of people who are MP's across the political parties who I think are worthy of their positions , are rational , intelligent and believe it a matter of privilege to hold the title Member of Parliament.

frumpety · 17/02/2018 08:04

So was everyone involved with the GFA a terrorist sympathiser as well ?

RedToothBrush · 17/02/2018 08:07

I think one of the few truisms about MN is that it contains a disportionately high number of women in the 25 -50 bracket.

It will be swamped come next election. More so than the last.

I also expect someone to come mansplaining in the next month or so. It might well be a woman sent to do the same job but they will be passing on a message as directed rather than engaging with women and actually doing that listening thing.

Thats the thing, politicians have stopped listening and none are prepared to tackle any difficult issue in a proactive way to find actual practical solutions.

Next webchat by a politician on mn is going to see some real bloody anger if its all biscuits and avoidance of difficult questions.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/02/2018 08:12

Parts of the IRA, many Republican sympathisers - and Corbyn - all campaigned for a vote against the GFA, because they claimed the British govt couldn't be trusted to keep to it, once the IRA gave up its weapons and its violence against England.

(the DUP campaigned against, because they wanted Unionists to rule absolutely, without sharing any power with the large Catholic minority)

Nearly all Brits - including me - said no British govt could possibly renege on the GFA Confused
Looks like Corbyn and those Republicans knew Britain a lot better than the rest of us Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 17/02/2018 08:18

I'm not shocked that the younger generation have different attitudes towards the IRA and possible sympathisers, because they weren't around through the mainland bombing campaign
but
I am shocked so many apparently hadn't realised that NI is a country within the UK
What did they think the annual summer Loyalist marches / riots were about ?

At least during the troubles, the telly showed maps of NI explaining where particular incidents had happened, so it was more difficult to escape the knowledge that the problem belonged to us all.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/02/2018 08:30

I was wondering about Kate Hoey and other NI Unionists who moved to the mainland:

How many of those with nationalist, authoritarian views in mainland-based organisations are NI Unionists, or from such traditions ?
What influence are they having on influencing policy in mainstream organisations, or in forming far-right terrorist groups ?

There are some Lexiters, including on MN, who seem to prioritise Unionism, whether Scottish or NI, so much that they praise and vote for the most incompetent and nasty Tory govt in living memory

  • Brexit in particular seems to have increased Unionist passion in Scottish & NI Unionists
Peregrina · 17/02/2018 08:32

Labour will have to work hard on reassuring women voters and valuing their input. They can taKe any of the vote for granted.

This for me is one problem with Labour. Of those I know, one or two too many are the stereotypical mansplainers in the pub bore mould. This puts me right off. Corbyn doesn't help, by being more concerned to keep in with Leave voting Labour voters. However, even though he didn't win the election, he did manage to scupper Theresa May which was a win of sorts, and I did like many of their policies at the last election.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/02/2018 08:32

Do they move from NI to the mainland for economic reasons, or to escape the rigidity of Unionism, or to escape having to share power with Irish Nationalists ?

BiglyBadgers · 17/02/2018 08:35

I'm not surprised the young aren't bothered about the IRA stuff with Corbyn because those that are politically engaged enough to know who the IRA are also the to know that they came as a response to a policy of violent and concerned oppression from the UK government and that the unionists also did some pretty despicable things alongside our own police and army. You have had more and more mainstream films around the hunger strikes and even things like the Irish element in Peaky Blinders that depict a much more nuanced view of what went on in the troubles. The young pick up on this and don't see it as English = good/ IRA = bad

As someone firmly in the middle of the 25-50 age bracket I don't see anyone coming out covered in glory, so Corbyn talking to the IRA is really not that big a deal. Many of his supporters even see it as a positive example of him looking at both sides of a bitter conflict and reaching across a divide. I am ambivalent on it, but it certainly doesn't keep me awake at night. Not compared to the influence of the extreme right and massive corporations on the Tory Government and the impact they are even now having on our policy and public sector.

Swipe left for the next trending thread