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Brexit

Westministenders: Groundhog Day

994 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2018 16:20

Groundhog day is 2nd Feb.

Its also today. And yesterday. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before.

We have all turned into Bill Murray.

That's Brexit in the UK.

The only progress seems to be linguistic gymnastics not policy.

No action has been implemented, we are still on words going nowhere.

Tick tock, tick tock.

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47
BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2018 00:26

Tory jitters exposed as Theresa May pushes for Brexit agreement

No 10 forced to deny government is seeking open-ended transition period prior to talks at Chequers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/21/may-reassures-brexiters-as-cabinet-meets-to-thrash-out-details-of-transition

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2018 00:29

Tick tock goes the Brexit clock
May finally having to make a decision, or yet more delays and dithering ?

Mount Brexit threatens to blow as May calls cabinet to Chequers
The recent increase in seismic activity suggests a major eruption could be imminent

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/21/mount-brexit-threatens-to-blow-as-may-calls-cabinet-to-chequers

mathanxiety · 22/02/2018 05:03

From the OpenDemocracy link posted a little upthread by SusanWalker
www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/tory-ministers-taxpayer-cash-hard-Brexit-erg

So, who are the ERG? The early years

In February 1998, the Labour MP Andrew MacKinlay received a mysterious package at his office in parliament. As he explained in a point of order to the Speaker, Betty Boothroyd, “the postal system apparently could not find any person to whom they could be appropriately delivered”.

The strange piece of post was addressed to "The Treasurer, The European Research Group, House of Commons, London SW1." And inside were “100 cheques and a Midland bank paying-in book for an account in the name of ‘The Danish Referendum Campaign Account.’”

The Danish referendum on membership of the Euro in 2000 was seen as a key moment in the process of European integration. Joining the Euro had widespread support from the Danish establishment, but was ultimately rejected by the people of Denmark.

As MacKinlay explained:

“Someone is running a fund-raising exercise from the House for that group, which could bring the House into disrepute. It means that those who cannot command a majority in the House to scupper the Amsterdam treaty are trying to use the Danish people as a surrogate to do so. That should not happen through the offices of the House.”

That someone was the secretary of the European Research Group – the young man who helped found the “party within the Conservative party” which is now bending government rules and holding Theresa May to ransom. The young man’s name was Daniel Hannan.

Well, well, well - interference in a vote held in a foreign sovereign state...

mathanxiety · 22/02/2018 06:09

When the grad tax was first brought in, I assumed there would be a braindrain of any grads who took out loans, but are able to work abroad.
However, it turned out that this is an emotional step too far for many - even moving to another area of the UK brings anguish.
That's probably another example of an extreme Aspie like me not understanding how NTs feel or act.

This is not an Aspie/NT thing.
Irish people have been emigrating for hundreds of years now, and graduates leave Ireland (and return) in waves.

It's a British cultural thing. Or maybe the Irish are all Aspies...

lonelyplanetmum · 22/02/2018 06:16

Whilst we are waiting for the post Chequers news to be announced..going back to food I suppose it's possible we won't even know where meat comes from anyway.
If food labelling regs are changed, the country of origin may no longer appear on products?
Ignorance is bliss after all.

thecatfromjapan · 22/02/2018 06:20

With reference to the non-emigration of UK graduates: Remember, until very recently, the UK was doing very well economically and there were lots of opportunities for graduates in the UK - to the extent that London was a magnet for graduates across Europe and across the globe. There wasn't really a pressing need for graduates to emigrate.

Now, of course ... Sad

Cailleach1 · 22/02/2018 06:58

Brexit: UK would have to pay even higher divorce bill for longer transition period

EU to demand money should UK extend transition time

Britain will have to pay for any transition beyond 2020, probably annual payments with no rebate.”

Those headlines are wrong. If the UK wants an extra transition period, it is not part of the divorce.

Also the UK cannot just extend the transition time. It is within the gift of the EU.

Mistigri · 22/02/2018 07:04

Senior civil servant JJ on RNorth's blog posted that printing ration books was the first thing they did (as an emergency fallback) late 2016 when Brexit planning started

I'm sceptical about this. Someone had to print those. No leaks. Really? Also sceptical that a bona fide senior civil servant would be taking this risk.

OTOH it's clear that Richard North knows what he is talking about on the agri/food front. It's his specialist area, plus he's made it his business to be knowledgeable generally about Brexit-related technical issues.

My (no doubt incomplete) understanding is that a customs union removes (or partly removes - see Turkey) the need for customs checks on goods crossing the border, but it does not remove the need for other types of inspection, such as veterinary or phytosanitary controls. Only by remaining in the single market does compliance cease to be an issue.

For the Irish border issues to go away, the UK therefore has to remain in BOTH the customs union and the SM i.e. a "Norway plus" Brexit. Just Norway isn't enough, because Norway does have a physical border with the EU - not a rock-hard border, but enough of a border for it to be an inappropriate model for Ireland.

Mistigri · 22/02/2018 07:07

Re a longer transition. Wouldn't this fall foul of GATT? How long could it be and still be legally valid under international trade law?

Think it is becoming more likely that when push comes to shove, A50 will be extended.

Icantreachthepretzels · 22/02/2018 08:06

I know it was the guardian and all, but there was some interesting language in the article bigchoc posted. That David Davies had warned of a Mad Max dystopia - when in fact what he said was that there wouldn't be one. (I knew that would come back to bite him on the bum - as soon as you tell somebody something isn't going to happen, you immediately put the idea that it could happen into their mind.) And 'Brexit might not mean Brexit' - right at the end.
Along with the 'if Brexit happens' on the Today programme yesterday...maybe the tide really is turning. And once the MSM stop acting like Brexit is a done deal and THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE...then that tide will turn pretty fast.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 22/02/2018 08:35

Not holding my breath but

Adam Payne
@adampayne26
Corbyn is set to give a significant Brexit speech on Monday. Owen Smith, who wants to stay in the single market and customs union, said yesterday Corbyn's position is "evolving and deepening." Big policy shift coming?

Corbyn is giving a big Brexit speech on Monday, a source close to him just confirmed to me. Strap yourselves in.

SusanWalker · 22/02/2018 09:15

Although I did see an idea that the mad max thing was done deliberately to make any suggestions that the future will not be all milk and honey seem ridiculous. Trying to put any suggestions of issues into the same box as crazy dystopia fantasy.

Sorry not very articulate today. I didn't sleep very well last night.

The trouble with having low standards is its really hard to persuade business to raise them. Look at all the dire warnings when minimum wage was introduced. The reason we have such high standards in beef is because of the BSE. We had to work really hard to raise standards and build up a good reputation for our beef. I would hate to see that thrown away.

DrivenToDespair · 22/02/2018 09:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 22/02/2018 09:51

When all the headlines say “Davies says no Brexit Dystopia” instead of “Davies says we’re on track for Milk & Honey,” I’d say the message has definitely evolved.

I think when one side appropriates the language of the other, the tide is turning. It was Remainers that warned of a dystopia, and Leavers that promised sunny uplands. So when a purported Leaver to suddenly use "project fear" language it catches my ear.

(Goes off to read the Goebbels playbook on media manipulation).

DGRossetti · 22/02/2018 10:35

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/02/20/aviation-cliff-edge-how-brexit-is-sabotaging-a-british-succe

The usual civil service metaphor for Brexit is of a series of rocks. Each time you pick one up, all these horrible slimy things crawl out from under it - things you'd never have thought were remotely connected to Brexit. This is an article about the horrible slimy things under the rock named 'aviation'.

European aviation is fundamentally a British success story. It's one of the best pieces of evidence for how Britain made the single market work for its services economy and helped make life better for passengers all over the continent in the process. But that success is now a hostage of Brexit. If the hard Brexiters in Cabinet get their way, Britain will turn back the clock on the last 30 years of development.

This is how the system works. Aviation is governed by a series of treaties. The foundation text is the 1944 Chicago convention, which gave nation states sovereignty over their airspace. You can only fly to another country once you've signed an agreement with them. There's no WTO option or fallback system. You either sign a treaty or you're out in the cold.

Most treaties allow you to fly to a country and back, or fly there with a transit stop on the way - a crucial advantage back in the days when planes could carry less fuel.

And for a long time that was pretty much it. UK flights could go to France and then on to Germany, but they could only do so if they originated in Britain. Every service an airline offered had to be anchored down to the home country.

Then the European single aviation market came along. It was a revolution.

Britain, alongside allies like the Netherlands, convinced more protectionist states to open up their markets. Suddenly, airlines could offer services which were completely disconnected from their home country. Any EU airplane could fly between any two points in Europe it liked. Not only could a UK flight go from France to Germany without originating in the UK, it could set up daily services between Paris and Lyon.

The consequences were immediate. Low-cost airlines like EasyJet and RyanAir sparked into life. Sure, they were almost gleefully uncomfortable and utilitarian, but they hammered down the cost of travel for millions.

The UK aviation industry is now the largest in Europe and the third largest in the world. In 2006, it transported 268 million passengers, sustaining a million jobs, and contributing £52 billion to the economy and £9 billion directly to the Treasury. The EU is its single biggest destination, accounting for just over half of passengers.

No sane British government would ever want to leave a system which has proved so demonstrably successful. Theresa May would almost certainly rather find a way of staying in. But aviation, like every other sector, is a hostage in the internal Tory psychodrama over Brexit.

The single aviation market is part of the EU's legal spider's web. It comes under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ), which hard Brexiters reject, and has rules established and monitored by EU agencies, which hard Brexiters want to leave.

The most important agency in aviation is the European Aviation Safety Agency (Easa). Everything you see on a plane in Europe has been vouched for by Easa - from the engine, to the landing gear, to the little trolley that goes up and down the aisle with the drinks. It's heavily influenced by the UK and France, who together provide two-thirds of all the rule-making input on European safety regulation.

If you leave it, bad things happen. All the things Easa used to take care of will suddenly have to be done by the UK's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). You don't even want to think about how much work that entails, or how many members of staff would have to be hired to do it. The level of technical complexity is dizzying.

Ensuring that the plane itself is safe to fly requires certifying 5,000 different parts. And that is just one tiny part of the work that the regulator needs to do. It'll also have to monitor the training and work of any engineer carrying out work on any plane anywhere in the UK. It'll need to have day-to-day oversight of the work done at all 172 maintenance, repair and overhaul sites. Even military training simulators for combat aircraft pilots will come under its remit.

That new regulatory work would come as Britain cut itself off from its largest market. Leaving Easa means we'd be out the continental system and back to the days of old-school bilateral treaties, restricted to flights to and fro. It would be like going back to the early 90s, but not in a fun Netflix series sort of way. Just in a really drab, irritating way. Most analysts expect there to be significant price rises for passengers, of somewhere between 15% and 30%.

This sounds bleak enough as it is, but in reality it would represent victory. Because even getting to this point means we'd have avoided several more catastrophic short-term hazards.

The first is no-deal Brexit. If talks fall apart, UK aviation faces disaster. No deal on Brexit means no deal on aviation - and no WTO-style arrangement to fall back on. Flights from the UK to Europe would have no legal foundation. Even Britain's flights to the US, which are currently validated by an EU treaty, would be affected. It would be chaos.

If a Brexit deal is reached, the transition element means UK membership of Easa would be extended for another couple of years, buying a little more time to hammer out some kind of long-term arrangement. But the third-party problem remains. Britain's flight rights and safety recognition with several other countries - including the US and Canada - both come through EU membership.

This is why the UK recently slipped out a message to world governments requesting that they continue to treat it as an EU member during transition.

In the area of flying rights, this strategy is likely to succeed. No-one gains from chaos in the air and planes grounded in a key global transport hub. The problem is with safety agreements.

The US and Canada will require detailed technical information about Britain's safety regime before they allow flights. Previously this was vouched for by our membership of Easa. But now, no-one knows what the UK is doing.

British ministers will insist that there's nothing to worry about. Our safety standards on Brexit day will be identical to the ones we had the day before. But the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) isn't worried about today. It's worried about what we'll be like tomorrow. And it is not getting anyguarantees about what a future UK aviation regime will be like, because the government is lost in a civil war between those wanting to stay close to the EU and those wanting complete divergence.

If the UK said it was staying in Easa, these third-party safety agreements would be simple. The nightmare comes if the UK leaves, pumps steroids into the CAA and decides to set up its own regulatory regime. Or worse, if it gets to the autumn without knowing which of these options it'll choose. By then, the Americans will need very detailed technical information about precisely the regime Britain intends to operate, now and in future. The chances of them getting it are slim.

If there are no details forthcoming, the FAA will assume the worst case scenario and act accordingly. Staff will fly in and guarantee for themselves that everything is up to their standards. It will be hugely expensive for the UK aviation industry, which will have to pay by the hour for US officials to check all their processes and procedures, in over 100 UK airports and 172 maintenance and repair facilities. It would also be a desperately humiliating moment for a country which is used to acting as a global leader in aviation. It's akin to being put in special measures.

That is the ugly prognosis for what lies ahead. It involves either the full horror story of no-deal or the still rather alarming problem of third party agreements during transition. And after that, there is a strong likelihood of chronic long-term decline in influence, revenue and passenger freedom.

'Regulatory divergence' is one of those phrases which rightly sends people to sleep. This is the practical reality of what it entails and what the consequences are of rejecting it.

mrsreynolds · 22/02/2018 10:44

Monday you say?
Hmmm

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 22/02/2018 11:01

I did ponder whether to post it in the first place and I probably should have gone with restraint because lo and behold:

Jessica Elgot
‏*@jessicaelgot*
Labour source says Corbyn’s speech on Monday will be his plan for a Jobs First Brexit and we’re capitalising now so you know it’s going to be big.

AgnesSkinner · 22/02/2018 11:10

DG I’ve flagged the aviation stuff up on other threads (you can guess which). All you ever hear is “don’t be stupid, of course planes are going to fly”.

Crunch time will be soon, as British Airways for instance releases flights around 11 months ahead of departure dates.

TatianaLarina · 22/02/2018 11:18

For the Irish border issues to go away, the UK therefore has to remain in BOTH the customs union and the SM i.e. a "Norway plus" Brexit. Just Norway isn't enough, because Norway does have a physical border with the EU - not a rock-hard border, but enough of a border for it to be an inappropriate model for Ireland.

We need to be in the customs union or a customs union - the latter could be created by bilateral deals with additional agreements. Why anyone would bother with the latter I don’t know, as it would amount to the same thing, but it’s apparently technically possible.

Norway isn’t in the customs union thus goods are subject to checks, documentation, rules of origin, and Norway reports border delays.

So no, Norway isn’t enough.

SusanWalker · 22/02/2018 11:25

Ed Vaizey on the current state of the tory party.

mobile.twitter.com/5WrightStuff/status/966617098205229058

TatianaLarina · 22/02/2018 12:14

Oh - re-reading my post, the tone sounds like I’m correcting you, but I was agreeing with you. Misti

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2018 12:50

All airlines start booking airport slots and planning aircraft movement / locations about 12 months before flights

So, unless there is a deal on this very soon, passengers who book far in advance will start to notice that they can't.
I'd expect responsible journalists reporting on Brexit to keep checking about biweekly if they can book in advance and for how long, to ask the airlines if suddenly they find a cutoff
However, even those not pushing Brexit seem lazy and low on facts.

I keep referring to the RNorth blog because it seems he's doing 99% of the accurate Brexit analysis in the media
but hardly any of the public have heard of his blog.

btw, some weeks after the ration books post, JDD was one of a small group of civil servants interviewed by the police at the station - confirmed by North - and released without charge
If he weren't so senior and one of the few civil servants there with such tech knowledge about trade law ...

Very noticeable since then how rarely JDD posts and never again anything so concrete about his work, other than to post he has repeatedly informed ministers of XYZ, in reply to posts "why don't ministers realise ....."
He and North refer to discussions they still have together about technical questions, but imo JDD is now suitably cautious about what he posts

Mistigri · 22/02/2018 12:52

We need to be in the customs union or a customs union

But a customs union alone doesn't solve the Irish border problem.

TatianaLarina · 22/02/2018 12:54

Indeed not, we need the single market as well.

We’ve signed up to ‘full alignment’ on both which is the only thing that will make the Irish border work. But I’m not convinced the Tories have really grasped the implications of this.

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2018 13:00

Had some bad news so will be awol for a few days.

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