Westminstenders: Stuck in the twilightzone

[RedToothBrush]

Just want to remind everyone if what really matters and what the priority if Theresa May is.

May isn't interested in a new referendum. There is barely time to hold one, and anyone remotely interested in one, isn't named Theresa May. Forget it. Its not happening.

Nor are Brexit talks the most important thing. Whilst Jeremy Corbyn seems finally to be playing with some sort if EEA type solution he's not the one named Theresa May. If she doesn't want one, then it won't happen.

May does seem to favour something along these lines but she has to sell it to her party. If she ends up relying on the support of Labour to push it through against what her party want, then that doesn't end well for her or her party. So Corbyn seeming to squeeze her here isn't necessarily a good thing. It could push her to no deal.

Why?

Cos petty party politics.

THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING, and don't forget this, is the EU withdrawal Bill. As it stands, May has to concentrate her efforts on this. If it doesn't pass by the art 50 deadline then we have legal chaos. May isn't big on the courts, but I'm not sure she would want that situation either. It would be even more unthinkable than queues at Dover coupled with food shortages.

If it doesn't pass, and the Lords will do all they can to delay and obstruct as long as they can, May's only option is to beg for an art 50 extension. Which the EU might not be inclined to give. Which might leave us in a situation where our only option is to revoke a50.

The only predictable thing, is this will be last minute brinkmanship.

All the talk of a second ref is a distraction. Talk of Labour's position at this point, is all about positioning for the next election and not about Brexit at all.

So try to keep your eyes on what really matters and what battles are May's big ones and which are merely side shows.

I wonder who Side Show Bob will turn out to be.

Within a democracy there must be rules to how we go about promoting our point of view and changing minds. Rules such as not making personal abusive attacks, not lieing or releasing information out of context in a way that amounts to lieing, it means acting within the realms of basic decency and not choosing actions that result in the near destruction of the very thing you claim to be standing for.

I do not think we should be trying to stop Brexit by lieing or releasing personal attacks on brexiteers. I do not think we should be asserting that a minority should have a greater influence than a majority. I believe if we are to reverse brexit we must do so in the right way or we risk losing more than we save. Maintaing democracy is not a case of opposition by any means and at any cost.

Elements of the PLP during the period before the election did not support any type of democracy that I recognise. They did not follow basic tenets of truth or seek to pursuade people of their view using arguement and policy. That is the difference and if you can't see that I truely worry for the remain cause.

I do not think we should be asserting that a minority should have a greater influence than a majority

Before this gets taken out of context. Minority view points must have a voice and be heard. They must be considered equality, but the PLP do not get to overturn the view of the membership without the memberships support. Just as unless the remainers can pursuade leavers to change their minds we are not going to stop Brexit.

I'm not defending the plps actions, as I wouldn't defend the leave campaigns. I'm pointing out the phraseology. Its language designed to stiffle debate.

I'm glad you wrote that, Bigly. It's good to hear the viewpoint of someone who doesn't find it irritating/creepy. It's important to hear that - and, I'll be hones, I find it somewhat reassuring.

As I said earlier, I don't get it, and it does irritate me, and I do find it alarming. But there you go, not every message will hit every member of its audience in the same way.

I have to confess I really like Diane Abbott. In the immediate aftermath of the Referendum, politicians of many persuasions were falling over themselves to publicly state how they 'understood' the need to halt immigration. I can't describe how much I hated that, and how much it frightened and sickened me. I still believe that that contributed to the empowerment of the far right in the UK.

Diane Abbott was one of the very few who didn't.

I don''t like the continued attack on the legacy of New Labour. I experience it as divisive, paranoid, and - most of all - unhelpful. It should be a really powerful legacy: how much better than the current government were New Labour? Massively more competent. I really think that Labour should have been working to objectively assess that legacy, extracting the good; moving away from the bad - so that it can be utilised in the next GE. Instead, they have wasted a lot of time establishing New Labour as the enemy within - and 'other' against which elements of Momentum can shore up support.

I find it depressing and utterly divisive. And a waste of time.

The PLP panicked because they though Corbyn would result in carnage at the polls. I think it's worth remembering that most Labour MPs are people, and most go into politics because they do, honestly, want to make a difference to people's lives. Jo Cox wasn't the only politician in Parliament with strong ideals. And, given they;re people, they are susceptible to the same worries and anxieties as most of us. I should imagine that quite a few mirrored the anxieties and doubts quite a few of the electorate have about the direction of Labour at present.

I do think that attributing a little humanity to the PLP is helpful. They're not all a bunch of Blairite quislings. I'm sure quite a few were very reassured and excited by the positive elements of the last GE result.

I'm really not sure that it was Blairites that caused the loss of the last GE by Labour. Certainly, on the ground, CLPs worked their socks off to win, irrespective of the affiliation of who was standing. And I'm not at all sure we have a full picture of how and why people voted the way they did. Personally, I remain concerned as to what that result tells us. We'll really have to wait and see.

I really really don't like the continued demonisation of New Labour. I feel that battle is over. Corbyn is leader. The PLP have accepted that. The members have accepted that. A lot of members are excited and happy about that. Given the level of acceptance - even joy, it feels to me that the continued attacks are unnecessary, an utter waste of time, and a distraction.

That's what it feels like. I, personally, would be very reassured if they stopped.

I'm lukewarm about Corbyn but very supportive of Labour. I'm even a fan of Abbott. And I think it's precisely because I am supportive that I experience this continual going on about 'the Blairite menace' as utterly bonkers and ... irritating, frankly.

That's a really long post. It's just an attempt to explain why it sounds 'off' to me. I'm not the whole of the Labour electorate, or the UK electorate. I guess my main hope is that I'm not a representative part. Genuinely. I really don't think the current government (and by that, I don't even mean the Conservatives, I mean specifically the group of people and forces who are driving the government of the UK at this present time,) is healthy for the UK. I want, need, them gone.

You have used your distorted reading of a few of my words, which you have taken out of context, to dismiss everything I have said. This is a pretty powerful way to stifle debate as well.

thecat I'm with you when it comes to the absence of solid, thought-out, visionary policy. This is one of the things that Blair had a good instinct for, and I'm quite happy for him and his colleagues to take credit for things like SureStart, the various devolution settlements, the Good Friday Agreement, and increased funding for essential public services that was long overdue.

None of the parties since then have really been able to offer anything so inspirational and coherent. Corbyn's Labour is saying things that make intuitive sense to a lot of people (e.g., less private-sector involvement in essential public services, apposite in the light of last week's events) but isn't really giving us much of a vision of what Britain would look like under its stewardship. May's pretty rubbish on this too; and I don't remember Miliband inspiring us with any vision, either.

It would be nice if things could move in that direction, I agree.

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On wasting time with internecine disputes, here's a little food for thought: novaramedia.com/2016/09/26/how-did-tristram-hunt-get-to-be-an-mp-anyway/

Tristram Hunt was forced on his constituency to pack the parliamentary Labour party (PLP) with young Blairites untainted by the 1997-2010 government. With this in mind, when people like Hunt attack the Labour left’s ‘threats’, they’re not doing it as a point of principle. Party democracy is not particularly sacred to them, and the imposition of candidates was a complaint directed at Blair since the first years of his leadership.

(I tried to find something more relevant to the early-years Blair "deselections" [he was more subtle about this of course] but I think a lot comes before newspaper reports were routinely preserved on the internet. I'd have to dig out my back issues of Private Eye to come up with the specific stories, but I remember there were quite a few of them).

Which is to say, this kind of shenanigan is nothing new, and it has always been a waste of time, no matter who's doing it. What was staggering, though, was the open hostility that emerged from parliamentary colleagues as soon as Corbyn started packing the town halls in his first election campaign, and then escalating when he won. I have never seen anything like it. It was so obviously an act of sabotage, and frankly the party didn't deserve to win an election with this level of disunity on display. Which is not to say you can't criticise the leadership, but you do it behind closed doors. Those of us who live in the real world would get the sack if we publicly slagged off our bosses in such a manner...

But, y'know, two wrongs don't make a right. Could both sides bury the hatchet? I'm not holding my breath.

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Which brings us back to Diane Abbott. I also don't see a sense of "telling me what to think". I do get that reaction whenever anyone on here starts a sentence with "Don't forget..." or "Remember..." and immediately skip to the end of the post because I'll decide what I'll remember, thank you very much.

Perhaps I'm over-reacting to some harmless rhetoric. Other reactions are available.

Although I wish it weren't so I think the cause for Remain is already lost because of some of the points Bigly has made in her post. Insulting and sneering at those who voted Leave is not going to persuade them round to a Remain stance. Dismissing the fact that Leave won the referendum and spinning that it was an advisory vote and should be ignored is not helpful either.

cat another brilliant post. That's where I'm at with it. I was never a fan of Blair and certainly not Brown, but I don't like this demonisation of New Labour either. You've hit where I was at too. I also like Abbott as well, but that doesn't stop me finding that article a bit creepy.

You make some great points cat and I agree with a lot for what you say. I am always careful not to use the phrase "the PLP" as if they are one homogeneous mass as they really aren't and it isn't fair on the ones who are just trying to do the right thing for their party.

I also agree that I personally don't think labour would have won even with full support from everyone in the PLP. It just feels like too much of a leap, but I think Abbot still has a fair point in saying the actions of some of the PLP did have an impact on the way people view labour.

My main issue with the comments around this article is that it is very clear this is not the whole interview and her comments are taken without context of the questions being asked of her. Much of the rest of the language in the interview and headlines are very emotive and pushing in a particular direction. We don't know the surrounding discussion was in the interview. For all we know the interviewing was pushing her for a view around the election and the actions of some members of the PLP. The comments she makes are not conclusive and clear enough for them to be seen as creepy and to justify the outraged reactions.

Perhaps we could drop the demonisation of Momentum too? I've bumped into a few of their folk recently and they have been - to a woman - lovely people.

Yy @ Tristram Hunt. But I think you missed the open goal of Kate Hoey there. I believe she owes her seat to Labour-right manoeuvres - and look at the nightmare that has proved to be. I only have to think of Kate Hoey and I begin to warm to the idea of re-selection (which is not an idea I'm generally fond of at all).

Yes. I think this is where we should be going with the New Labour legacy. Instead of blanket demonisation, a realistic assessment of legacy - sorting out the good and the bad. Oddly enough, pre-Referendum, I loathed Progress. The Referendum has made me non-partisan. In a way, I felt it rearranged the landscape completely. I, personally, am longing for an acknowledgement, somewhere, anywhere, of this changed landscape. I am desperate to move forwards, fighting in a world where the Far Right and the Libertarian Right have experienced a massive seizure of ground. I am fed up with fighting the battles of the past.

Bigly I'm really sorry if you think that. Genuinely. I can only say I genuinely took heart from your post.

I think you make really good points - and that I absorb them, think about them, and accept them.

I add them to the things I know - or think I know - and it changes the view I have into something larger.

I am incredibly grateful that you post these things.

Perhaps we could drop the demonisation of Momentum too? I've bumped into a few of their folk recently and they have been - to a woman - lovely people.

I agree! The momentum members I know all work in the front line of austerity in public sector jobs. They are desperately trying to find a way to stop cuts and policies that are attacking the people they have spent years working to help. I might no always agree with all their views, but they are not deserving of the hatred they seem to get from some quarters.

Bigly I'm really sorry if you think that.

I'm not sure what you are referring to? I thought I was mostly agreeing with you accept a comment on the interview article which wasn't a personal attack on you.

My response was to a far earlier post, Bigly. I hope that's clear!

Look out for Lambeth in the local elections in May BTW. Its a Labour held council currently but word on the street is that thanks to reaction to Hoey and despite her reelection, the Tories may end up gaining seats through split votes.

The one at 10:49!!!

I don't want anyone to feel they're not being read - or that what people write isn't appreciated.

I, for one, really appreciate all the posters on this thread. It's an oasis. And, over time, I've come to kind of psychically lean on the people who come here. It's a sanity-giver.

Ah! If you ment the 10:49 one that wasn't aimed at you. Just a coincidence of timing they it crossed with yours.to many posts with too many people!

See, crossed posts again!

All the momentum lot I've come across round this way are lovely BTW. Can't say anything about activists from prior to the last general election because they were fairly invisible. I'm glad something other than Tory, ukip and BNP are emerging now here. Its needed.

Though in fairness some of our local Tories are also lovely but have their lips stuck to our local MPs butt sadly

Channel 4 News/Michael Crick did a good report this week exposing the myth that Momentum have taken over the Labour party. Out of 24 parliamentary candidates chosen for the next election only 5 have been Momentum. I caught a bit of Andrew Marr and the paper review this morning, even he was dismissive of The Times headline about a plot to oust Corbyn critics.

thecat I didn’t know Hoey was parachuted in back in ‘89. Do you recall anything of the circumstances (I wasn’t paying much attention to Labour infighting back then...)

bigly the one thing I would say about some of the momentum types I’ve interacted with is that they can be a bit idealistic and I come across as a weary old cynic, which I find amusing as I know in other circles I come across as a Corbyn apologist.

bigly the one thing I would say about some of the momentum types I’ve interacted with is that they can be a bit idealistic and I come across as a weary old cynic, which I find amusing as I know in other circles I come across as a Corbyn apologist.

I have exactly the same experience Eeeeeooo. They do make me feel a bit old sometimes, bless them. I also think that their idealism (combined with the fact a lot of them are quite young) often leads to them oversimplifying things, which is when I play the weary old cynic and rain on their progressive parades.