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Brexit

Westministenders: Rebel Rebel Your Brexit is a Mess.

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/12/2017 19:46

Hot Tramp, I love you so!

The European Parliament have agreed to progress talks to the next stage. Despite Brexiteers saying its not legally binding, it is apparent that the EU certainly disagree.

Not only that, but the wording of the deal goes further. It binds us to not being able to agree and new trade deals for 2 years.

The All Important Amendment 7 to the Great Repel Bill has been successful. May’s power grab has a set back.

By just FOUR votes the government was defeated. How May will be regretting that pointless election tonight.

Parliament will have a meaningful vote on the exit terms.

But don’t be too excited. Brussels might not like this as May can not guarantee the UK will agree to a deal. It means the the EU are negotiating with parliament NOT May now.

There is also the suggestion that the mood of parliament is changing and is beginning to lean more towards a EFTA / EEA type deal.

But equally this could also send us to the brink with a deal from the EU that could be rejected by parliament.

The stakes just got higher.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
41
Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2017 15:03

I don't think British people should be allowed to sign it!
'We're leaving - go whistle - row of the summer - cake and eat it- enemies of the people - saboteurs - no impact assessments - David Davis turning up to negotiations without note - What do you mean a British city can't be the European capital of culture? OK then EU, as a favour to you, we'll stay -but only if you give us shiny new things.'
I'm cringing so hard I'm almost inside out!

As ever, it's heartening to see our European friends looking to reverse Brexit, and not just wanting to get rid asap - and if Germans want to petition for a new deal for Britain, then have a crack. But British people should STF up. We've embarrassed ourselves enough as it is, we don't get to make even more demands.

woman11017 · 15/12/2017 15:18

I wasn't posting it to sign, I just wondered who it was aimed at.

LurkingHusband · 15/12/2017 15:54

Since is is one of the best informed threads on MN (if not the entire internet) does anyone know if there's a one-stop shop to contact the MPs who voted with their conscience and say "+1" ?

mrsreynolds · 15/12/2017 15:58

I've done it individually LH

LurkingHusband · 15/12/2017 16:31

I've done it individually LH

You really have no idea how lazy I am Smile ...

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2017 16:36

I wasn't posting it to sign

I know you weren't woman. But when I clicked the link all the most recent signatories were British - I was very embarrassed for them, and our nation as a whole.

I've just received a letter from the house of commons. My MP took the time to write an actual letter (and hand write in my name and everything!) to explain why exactly he was a weasel that would be voting for the most shameful power grab ever seen in British Parliament. Apparently he is reflecting the voice of his constituents (Leeds MP - Leeds voted remain) because when answering a simple yes or no question 18 months ago, they were apparently all fully endorsing the Government being able to pass major legislation without parliamentary oversight. [hmmm]

However, he retained his seat at the last election with less in it than Amber Rudd, so hopefully when this Government collapses he will reap what he has sown.

And of course - he lost the vote anyway, the rebels won so nanananana!

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 15/12/2017 17:00

I intend to write to my (pro Europe) MP to seek clarification on what a 'meaningful vote' means.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/12/2017 17:03

I wrote to the "rebels" individually too. Perhaps something like a mail merge might help?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/12/2017 17:07

Sam Coates Times
@SamCoatesTimes
This afternoon 4 backbenchers - Letwin Jenkins Lefroy and Cox - have put down an amendment that is likely to be accepted by Government and could kill off next week’s row and vote over Brexit date

Westministenders: Rebel Rebel Your Brexit is a Mess.
Westministenders: Rebel Rebel Your Brexit is a Mess.
Bolshybookworm · 15/12/2017 17:15

Think you live in the constituency next to mine i can. If I tell you that my MP is even more of a right wing, Brexit, trump supporting wing nut than yours then you'll be able to guess where I am Grin

I need to contact him over a local issue (to give him credit, he's quite attentive to local issues) but the thought of actually communicating with him- bleugh.

LurkingHusband · 15/12/2017 17:17

I wrote to the "rebels" individually too. Perhaps something like a mail merge might help?

Well, they've all be emailed (7 autoresponses so far).

Probably better not post a list of the email addys direct. Could be abused Sad.

BestIsWest · 15/12/2017 17:40

Bit late but placemarking.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/12/2017 17:46

Laura Kuenssberg
Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
Dominic Grieve has just told the BBC said it sounds like amendment would leave him ‘fairly satsified’

Sam Coates Times
@SamCoatesTimes
With Bernard Jenkin and Dominic Grieve both declaring they happy with the compromise, looks increasingly like the government has averted potential defeat next week.

Laura Kuenssberg
Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
Paul Masterton also happy with the amendment, numbers of potential rebels dropping away fast

Sam Coates Times
@SamCoatesTimes
The most recent withdrawal bill developments explain a rather cryptic tweet from the Tory chief whip earlier..:

Julian Smith MP
@JulianSmithUK
#MeghanMarkle #RoyalEngagement #Amendment7 @conservatives great news and great example - agreeing the date shouldn't be hard ...
[with photo of phone]

Westministenders: Rebel Rebel Your Brexit is a Mess.
Icantreachthepretzels · 15/12/2017 17:55

If I tell you that my MP is even more of a right wing, Brexit, trump supporting wing nut than yours then you'll be able to guess where I am

Oh God - not him ! My deep deep condolences Grin

LurkingHusband · 15/12/2017 18:05

New word for 2018.

"PESCO"

Not a nuisance pasta sauce, but ...

This ...

Non-EU states, like Britain in the future, will be able to join the programme, but only after negotiations and with agreement on providing funds

Theresa May arrived in Brussels on Thursday in time to see the official launch of the programme under which European states will integrate their defences, something Britain had avidly pressed for during the 1990s, but will not be a part of as it searches for its post-Brexit future.

The road to today’s Permanent Structured Cooperation (Pesco) began with the Anglo-French European Union defence accord 19 years ago. But the UK subsequently turned against extending this across the EU, holding that it may speed up the creation of an EU force, to the detriment of Nato.

The European states have repeatedly found themselves having to depend on the US to be bailed out militarily in recent times. They were unable to act in the Balkan conflict in the 1990s with any effect until the US stepped in. They were also forced to ask Washington for help after running out of bombs and missiles during the bombing of Muammar Gaddafi’s regime in Libya, a campaign which had been primarily instigated by David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy.

But reliance on America has become increasingly uncertain with the coming of Donald Trump, who had repeatedly threatened to curtail support in retaliation against European states not spending enough on defence.
He failed to affirm America’s commitment to Article 5, under which Nato states must come to the aid of an ally under attack, at his first Nato summit as President even when he was unveiling a memorial to the 9/11 attacks, the only time the Article has ever been invoked in the Alliance’s history.

The allegations of clandestine Russian backing for Mr Trump during the US election campaign, the questions about the links between his camp and the Kremlin, and subsequent claims of Moscow’s interference in the French and German elections, have also reinforced the feeling that Europe must do more to protect itself over security and intelligence.

Speaking about European defence cooperation, former German foreign minister Jocshka Fischer said: “It’s sad that we needed Donald Trump to give us a boost, but whatever, it is the right outcome.”
The EU’s foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini, wanted to stress broad support for the programme to which 25 countries have signed up. “No one EU country can provide security to its citizens on its own. That’s why three-quarters of EU citizens support this,” she said.

The argument that the European initiative would be divisive and would undermine Nato is, it appears, being resolved. Jens Stoltenberg, the Nato secretary-general, will attend some of the EU summit and plans are being drawn up for regular liaison.
Non-EU states, like Britain in the future, will be able to join the integration programme, but only after negotiations, as an exception, with agreement on providing funds.

The UK has indicated that it would like to cooperate with the EU on the issue. Boris Johnson said last month: “We’ll be looking at the new European plans for defence and security cooperation. We’re like a flying buttress to support the cathedral and we think there is a lot op promise in the ideas and we will be backing them up.”

However, there is a feeling among Europeans in the project that the continuing political turmoil in the UK makes any prospective plan by London uncertain.

There is also a degree of scepticism about the British Foreign Secretary’s pronouncements. The ambassador of one West European state said: “Just one example: this is a man who led a Brexit campaign which claimed, falsely, that 100 million Turks can come to Britain if Britain stays in the EU. Then after Brexit he went to Turkey and said that Britain will do its best to ensure that Turkey joins the EU.

“We also don’t know what the composition of a British government will be even in the near future. The feeling is that Pesco will go ahead without the UK being factored into the equation for the time being.”

Cailleach1 · 15/12/2017 18:07

Did anyone see something in the FT saying it was at the request of the UK that the next talks have been moved back to March? Not as I have read that May wanted them 'immediately' in January.

What is being said in public is different to what is happening. The UK are now going to have to say what they want. They will have to hold a cabinet meeting about Brexit for that.

LurkingHusband · 15/12/2017 18:08

Am I reading this right ?

The Conservatives have imposed ‘direct rule’ over the Scottish and Welsh parliaments

The Conservatives effectively voted to impose direct rule over the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly late on 12 December, according to Plaid Cymru. The government voted down Amendment 158 to the EU Withdrawal Bill by 315 votes to 291. Amendment 158 would have stopped ministers using ‘Henry VIII powers‘ to change the fundamental legislation behind parliaments in Scotland and Wales.
“Unfettered powers”

The pieces of legislation that established the current Scottish and Welsh parliaments are the Scotland Act 1998 and the Government of Wales Act 2006. Now, the government can use executive powers to modify both without a vote in parliament. That’s through Clause 7 of the EU Withdrawal Bill. It’s designed to allow the government to fix problems retaining EU law after Brexit. The government says the changes are too extensive and technical for the usual parliamentary oversight. And now that the government has voted down Amendment 158, ministers in London can use Clause 7 to fundamentally undermine both the Scottish and Welsh parliaments.
The SNP sent The Canary comments from Tommy Sheppard MP, who said after the vote:
The UK government had an important opportunity to show that it respects devolution, and will uphold Scotland’s devolution settlement, but instead it has completely failed. Once again Scottish Tory MPs have put their party allegiances before the interests of their Scottish constituents – voting to give UK government ministers unfettered powers to amend or repeal devolution legislation, which could seriously threaten the devolution settlements across the UK.
“Direct Westminster-rule”

The social democratic Welsh party Plaid Cymru also condemned the rejection of Amendment 158. The party’s Brexit spokesperson, Hywel Williams, told The Canary:
Westminster has voted to enshrine in law a power for itself to be able to meddle with Wales’s devolution settlement against our will. This amendment was put forward jointly by the democratically elected governments in Wales and in Scotland, but Westminster has voted to completely disregard the views of those two countries, effectively reinstating direct Westminster-rule once again.
The devolution settlement is the foundation upon which Wales’s government is built – our NHS, schools and local government are all run from the National Assembly thanks to the devolution settlement which will now be at the mercy of a Westminster government for whom the people of Wales didn’t vote. Politicians in Westminster need to remember that the UK is a union of four countries, not one, and that the people of Wales voted for devolved government in two referendums.
The Conservative government had not responded to The Canary at the time of publishing.
No media coverage

The government can now rewrite the laws that make up the Scottish and Welsh parliaments. To give a few examples, these laws designate devolved tax powers, elections and housing, as well as the actual establishment of the devolved parliaments. But the mainstream media has completely ignored the vote, with not a single report at the time of writing.
Fears that the government will use Brexit to launch a power grab on devolved administrations have been realised. The Conservatives have basically handed themselves ultimate power over Scotland and Wales. With the ruling party’s track record, that’s terrifying.

LurkingHusband · 15/12/2017 18:10

Did anyone see something in the FT saying it was at the request of the UK that the next talks have been moved back to March? Not as I have read that May wanted them 'immediately' in January.

No surprise to me. I posted that story a week ago.

(Not a dig @Cailleach1, more an acid commentary on what passes for our media these days)

Motheroffourdragons · 15/12/2017 18:12

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Cailleach1 · 15/12/2017 18:57

oops, soz LH. Hadn't seen or don't remember. It is just the spin is beyond belief. The UK aren't ready. Will the gov't implode if they all get together to settle on a common vision?

Only good thing today is Peter Lilley was put in his box on Sky by Nina Schick. Loved 'lets inject some reality'. But you know there is no getting through to planet Earth.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2017 18:59

Guidelines published - European Council (Art. 50) meeting (15 December 2017)

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/32236/15-euco-art50-guidelines-en.pdf

The UK will be a third country after Brexit, but there is a transition / extension phase
So not in the EU, no representation, but obeying all the rules - EEA / EFTA would be so much better than this

All four freedoms – including FOM - to remain during transition, also ECJ oversight

Unclear whether, during this transition, the Uk will still be able to use the FTAs the EU has with other countries - those other countries my all have to agree
Also unclear whether the UK will be able to negotiate its own trade deals - if it has to obey all EU rules, then it can't. The Uk urgently needs to seek a derogation for this

lonelyplanetmum · 15/12/2017 19:02

Completely tangentially...and very middle class of me but I just wanted to record a note from a box scheme I sometimes get veg from, justifying a 4% price rise.

" The pound has plunged 20% against the Euro since the summer of 2016, when we ..agreed prices [for some of our products] with our Spanish,French and Italian suppliers. We have held our prices for over a year but the sums are no longer adding up and,with great reluctance, we must put up our prices. Boxes will rise in the new year by an average of 4%...
Food inflation is currently running at 4.1%. ... Our boxes are still substantially cheaper than supermarkets " etc etc

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2017 19:06

Barnier referred to DD having “wilful optimism” in his trade aims Grin
Diplomatic, subtle comment, yet managing to clearly call DD a liar !

woman11017 · 15/12/2017 19:11

All four freedoms – including FOM - to remain during transition, also ECJ oversight
If we can still get out of Turnipstan during this time, and it continues to be as chaotic as we think, the contrast between EU countries and us should be nice and clear. Although, it pretty much is already.

I can't see a deal, though, really. EU27 haven't got anyone credible with a mandate or solid government to negotiate with here.

Interview with Prof Tanja Bültmann, an academic employed in UK.
Non english articles are so much more vivid and honest about the hostile environment.
www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/brexit-dass-wir-eu-buerger-so-unter-die-raeder-kommen-habe-ich-nicht-erwartet-1.3792680

woman11017 · 15/12/2017 19:13

Turkey ( the poultry) up 16% lonelyplanetmum
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/christmas-turkey-prices-up-16-11671874

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