Leavers - are you happy with the way Brexit is going?

[NameChangerGalore]

Do you think it is being well organised and managed and do you think you will get will the outcome you were hoping for when you voted to leave. I only know three leavers; one thinks it is going ok, one thinks it is a complete load of bollocks and that she was lied to and I don't know what the third thinks as he is a racist tosser and I try and avoid him......

These are the markets youre selling into. In terms of personal wealth, and then 'buying' ability, UK citizens can buy 4 times as much 'stuff' as the Swiss. UK citizens can 'buy' 60% more than the Germans.

This is one of the most economically illiterate things I have ever read on the internet.

Caroline appears to believe that, because we have a high-rate of owner occupation, serious constraints on housing supply and lots of debt, we are "rich".

You misread this report. The average UK citizen doesn't have EUR 132k on hand to spend but 14k.

You were looking at gross financial assets i.e. Bank accounts, stock accounts and pension pots, excluding debt.

First you need adjust the gross assets numbers to take out the % that is in pension pots - it's not money available now, and in any case other countries have much more generous state pensions, (which are not included here) instead of private pensions, That's page 76. 59% of the gross UK number.

This leaves 41% * 132k = 54k for what people have in bank deposits and stock accounts.

Next you need to subtract the debt people have. That's the difference between the gross and net number in the table you quoted.

132k-96k = 37k of debt.

Remaining net liquid assets : 54k - 37k = 17k.

And this EUR number was using 2015 exchange rates, so you need to slice this number off by another 20% due to the fall of the pound.

Net : ~ EUR 14k at today's exchange.

Morning!

Im aware I highly simplified things, but you are confusing 'cash' diabolo.

The gross figures I used are absolutely the pertinent figures, including pension pots.

For example, I could buy a 'pension management' vehicle from Allianz who are German owned and it becomes 1 of their 1,900 billion AUM (they actually receive the total value of the pot and it hits their balance sheet) or I could buy one from US owned Met Life. Who do you think I should buy from?

My inbox is bombarded with offers from organisations, the majority EU based for the obvious reasons.

Or post age 55, yes I could indeed liquidate the lot. I can pull 100% and it is real spendable money. Either way, pension pots are very much in the game, very much an asset, and absolutely classed as personal wealth. (With 'buying power')

A Romanian however, is way off getting on either organisations christmas card list.

State pensions are indeed not included, Salaries arent included either. But are you trying to say that when a Greek retires (who yes appears to receive a far higher state pension in comparison but then has to fund all other welfare support for himself, healthcare, very low housing benefits, disability etc ) he then suddenly accrues a mass of personal wealth?
Dont be fooled by the whole 'state pension' outrage. Theres a reason ours is where it is, and a reason other EU countries are significantly higher. Neither are designed to support buying new cars and luxury goods, they are higher to offset the social/welfare/housing/health costs that we receive for free.

The net figure is indeed provided. I didnt use the net figure, as housing equity is not included (and personal debt covers all sorts relating to housing) nor is salary included. Also, you have to be careful dismissing 'debt' as not a commodity. Was it debt gained by buying that German car in the first place? Indeed is it an EU based finance house that you used to raise that debt to buy that car? (1 car 2 significant purchases)

But for info, if you did disregard that the debt actually bought something, using the net figure for the average UK citizen, is indeed 95k and takes us up a place to 2nd in the rankings for EU citizen wealth. The Danes fall to 7th.

If we included housing equity....heavens, I wouldnt know where to start.

Your point about exchange rate is valid though. Whilst Allianz try to mitigate this in their data, all figures would of course be variable on a day to day basis.

The UK has the financially wealthiest population in the EU by a significant margin, and its all 'buying power'. I absolutely stand by my original post, as Im sure Allianz does their data.

Garden The EU has proposed that nothing will change for UK citizens in the EU. On the other hand, the UK will require EU citizens to legalise their status. If the process is anything as difficult as EEA(PR), then EU citizens might not be able to do that. Nobody knows what rights EU citizens in the UK will lose.

Yes, really happy thanks.
Rorty Here Here!!

It's all going swimmingly isn't it
it's not Terry's, it's Theresa's

"Let me factually try again on both the key reasons why the ‘Remainer’ (especially MPs) should get behind the UK government (rather than the EU Negotiators), and why the EU negotiators should show mutual respect to our own trade position, and that of the EU businesses they are supposed to be representing – rather than trying to punish the UK."

How queer. The EU have offered generous citizens rights. The UK gov't haven't reciprocated and now it has to be a negotiation.

The EU have published nine position papers and the UK gov't want to keep their imaginery hand 'secret'. The EU want everything open and transparent.

Members of the UK gov't have told the EU to go whistle on numbers which haven't even been published by the EU. They were in an article by the financial times. The EU want to agree a methodology. They said they won't ask for a Euro more than the UK has committed to.

Members of the UK gov't have publicly stated they want the EU destroyed. The EU are happy to let the UK go their own way. If they don't want to comply with the rules that go along with EU deals, they are free to say it is not for the British economy and seek better terms elsewhere. The EU are not saying that the UK has to make a trade deal with them after the UK are a third country. They are showing great respect. The four freedoms (one being of Labour) are indivisible. If they are anathema to you, why disrespectfully imply their existence is a punishment specially dreamt up for the UK. You just walk away if you don't want to comply. India are also saying talk to the hand if you don't want to relax movement of Labour. The PAC countries are not the pushover people think they are either. You're not the boss of them, no more. Dreadfully vindictive of them to have their own self interests, I know. I suppose they are all punishing the UK, too.

The EU don't want the UK to renege on their agreed commitments. Who wants someone to slink off and not honour their obligations? This is business.

Who is showing not just disrespect, but spite.

And Verhofstadt is just an MEP. Like Farage and the other kippers. They have said a few dodgy things. Do they ever say anything else?

By Brussels, I presume people are referring to the Commission. The Council (elected heads of all member states) meet and decide issues which they delegate to the Commission. The Commission make sure everything is in compliance with the Treaties.

"We have said everyone from EU can stay but at some point there will be a cut off for new arrivals to have automatic right to stay.

But the EU is saying No thats a ridiculous proposal. "

That is not what the UK are saying. That is not what the EU are saying.

Everyone from the EU cannot stay even at the moment. The UK don't seem to know who is in the country and don't enforce the removal.

This has all moved away from my op. The UK is leaving Europe - that much we know. I was asking a different question; the handling of it. Today we see yet another senior public figure , the Auditor General Office, in despair at the manner of our leaving and the people handling it. There doesn't seem to be a united approach to these negotiations.....

NameChangerGalore.

What like the requested audience today with Mr Barnier in Brussel by HM Opposition leader Corbyn for Labour, the Labour 1st Minister for Wales Carwyn Jones, and the SNP 1st Minister for Scotland Nicola Sturgeon - with their own agendas, which not only shows the political elites are not UNITED behind the government - but also strengthens the EUs hand, knowing they have a '5th Column' in Westminster.

BTW if this was meant to be a UK representative coach party, why was there no representative from Northern Ireland?

The UK is leaving Europe

No it isn't.

Cailleach1
May I take up a few points with you.

Re “The EU have offered generous citizens rights.”

What to our mainly 1 million non working citizens living in the EU, versus imposing the ECJ and similarly intrusive EU working rights we never adopted here on the what, 2-3 million EU citizen workers here – so where is the Barnier ‘trust’ issues here he accuses us of, and where else in the world are EU working citizens protected by EU courts and workers rights, and rights countries like France are trying to ditch?

Re “Verhofstadt and ‘Brussels’

‘Brussels’ nicely refers to the cluster of 'human trade barriers', all with big fancy titles, who all with their own agendas like to flex their muscles (as the Muscles from Brussels, get it?) criticising and laying down their branch of law how they see Brexit going - most of whom are arch-Federalists who would have been so anti UK, even if we stayed in.

Let me name most, starting with the ‘nice’ more conciliatory one;

Tusk; is President of the European Council

Verhofstadt; who to my surprise is only an MEP but leader of this ALDE parliament group, so does he have the power to throw Brexit deal legislation out of the European parliament as he threatens, or is he just some delusional bureaucrat, who’s ‘a nugget short of a happy meal’?

Weber; who is the leader of the largest parliamentary group

Juncker; who is President of the European Commission

Tajani; who is the President of the European Parliament.

Sharpston; who is the European Court of Justice’s Advocate General.

Barnier; who is the Chief chief EU negotiator - who started with a grudge against us, according to the link attached.

Do you think it is being well organised and managed

Not sure. I'm a bit disappointed in those who keep pressurising the Brexit team to reveal their negotiating hand. You don't reveal your hand going into negotiations

and do you think you will get will the outcome you were hoping for when you voted to leave.

The outcome I wanted was to leave. We haven't left yet. I'm still hopeful we actually will leave.

I always thought leaving would give us at least 10 years of serious turmoil before life in the UK will start to stabilise. Obviously no-one wanted this. But it has to be done to get out of the EU. I was a baby when we went into Europe. It wasn't my choice to join. Maybe if we'd left sooner there would have been less turmoil.

Ask me the same question in 2029.

Thank you isittheholidaysyet - an honest answer to an honest question.

No worries name

Also I feel very much that 'if I was in charge I wouldn't have done it like that'
(I'm thinking Cameron resigning, labour turning against Corbyn instead of jumping in to fill the Cameron void, May's snap election etc)
But I am not a politician. Nor am I volunteering to be one, it's not a job I could do, so I have to leave the politicians we have to get on with it.

I always thought leaving would give us at least 10 years of serious turmoil

I met a Leaver the other day who said almost the same thing, except he thought it would be 40 years of turmoil before we'd be 'back on top'. He was happy with that time scale even though he was already 70 himself.

I think their will be no deal.

I agree. I'm beginning to think Brexit won't happen at all. As we get closer to the cliff edge the voice of business will become loader and people who voted Leave may start to have serious worries about jobs and future. On the other hand the screeching of right-wing press will also get loader drumming up the masses with hatred for the EU because they haven't just rolled over giving us everything we want and Leave promised we would have. The right wing press might push through Brexit regardless of the cost.

Garden I'm lefty too. I just find it so surprising that anyone can be happily trusting that Bojo, strong & stable (difficult but now weepy) May,Gove et al will deliver a 'more worldy, more open, more diverse, more democratic, fairer, more progressive' and presumably more united, Kingdom. Where is the evidence to substantiate that blind faith.

I think think it's going to be no deal.
The reason is that they have to get 20plus countries to agreed and that will be hard as it's always going to mean someone loses, and the little countries will be the ones who cause it to fall.

Germany and France need to protect their interests and they will shout loudest, and that means Poland and Spain lose out.

I believe it's the Repeal Bill and its sweeping powers to bypass Parliament and do what the hell they want that Ms. May and her team are really interested in getting through.

I think they'll then either postpone or abandon Brexit as it's served its purpose for them.