Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

[RedToothBrush]

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

However we tend to be from less well of backgrounds originally and were enabled by free tuition, maintenance grants etc. and probably have a greater degree of empathy than those who are from comfortable middle class Home Counties.

I might not be from the Home Counties but I am from a very comfortable middle class background. The fact that I'm Scottish might be part of why I've always felt a need to pay taxes if I want the sort of services and society that cares for all but I think the more significant influence is that my dad was a doctor (who refused to do private medicine because he believed fundamentally in the principles of the NHS) and my mum was an English teacher (who believed in comprehensive, state education).

I was therefore brought up to believe that we all - but especially the most vulnerable - had the right to good healthcare and good education. They are the twin pillars of my political beliefs. I was also brought up to see it particularly from the children's perspective - they have no control over the families they are born into, so access to healthcare and an education to improve themselves is not something they should have to pay for privately.

When my dad was a newly qualified doctor, he did locums in the Gorbals (before they were cleared) - this would have been late 60s/early 70s. I sometimes used to go with him and stay in the car. It was an eye opener to me to see houses with broken windows yet a colour TV inside ( we didn't have a colour TV ) but dad told me not to judge as we didn't know if that was their only "luxury" (in those days, it would have been rented anyway) and also that you couldn't blame the children for the choices of their parents.

The economic minister reported that 730 jobs have already come to the Netherlands as a result of Brexit but there is 'reluctance' to engage in active recruitment "That is benefitting from the misery of someone who is a good partner to us."

Many years ago, I worked for a company that was formed out of the division of a huge UK software firm that couldn't see the point of PC software (yes, welcome to 1990s Britain).

A couple of directors and senior staff formed their own company, and within 6 months had a multi million order book, and were "collecting" staff from the former employer.

Due to really shit lax security, various confidential documents were available on the servers, and I had a LOL moment when read minutes of a board meeting where the board had received a request from the former employer to stop approaching staff. The board had run it by the firms lawyers wh advised that a referral to "Pressdram v. Arkell" would be entirely appropriate.

Sadly there was no indication whether it happened, but I'd like to think it did.

These Dutch people are so nice ....

More taxes don't have to come from people though. An increase income could come from taxing corporations more (our taxing is already very low compare to other countries inlc the US)
It could be coming from taxing the VERY rich (eg bankers iwth a £12millions bonus type of thing).
Why increasing the tax on the MC again when we know they've al ready been squeezed and don't have a lot left to give (plus that's the sort of thing that will have massive impact on the economy too because it's the MC that are buying and making the economy work).

Tom Newton Dunn‏*@tnewtondunn*
Lord West warns UK risks "being made a laughing stock" as there are no Royal Navy ships left to police post-Brexit fishing waters.

Guido Fawkes‏*@GuidoFawkes*

Volunteer force

Purple the corporations with potential to extract more tax in the UK tend to be service sector. The most efficient means to tax them is through their income generating assets ie their employees In the case of gig economy IT and entertainment sector reforming self employment taxes is an even more compelling argument for taxing people rather than corporates imho.

Corporate profits are much more mobile and easier to shield from tax than employees or even the buildings they work in (although bricks and mortar tend to be much less significant to these sectors than often assumed).

Someone needs to ask Tom N-D, Fleetstreetfox and co how they suppose the EU quota system is currently policed.

More taxes don't have to come from people though. An increase income could come from taxing corporations more (our taxing is already very low compare to other countries inlc the US)

However, as we have seen, companies are very good at not paying tax. Especially when they aren't delivering a tangible product.

It's true the UK could try to block Google until they pay enough tax. However, we've just started signing up to the notion that such behaviour is tantamount to war. And given how well all wars we've had with the US have gone (looks at calendar), it's probably not such a great idea to start one now.

That said if we did have a UK-US war, there would be a lot of fun watching BoJo deciding what nationality he is for which newspapers.

pretty Yes there is a sprinkling of mothers who were teachers amongst my peers, even if they are working class backgrounds, my mother retrained when we were children (free of course).

I suppose what shapes my judgement is that when I came down to university in the south I was quite shocked at the sense of entitlement and exclusive behaviour of the overwhelmingly middle class and home counties (and indeed 9 out of 10 male) students, especially those from wealthy backgrounds. I soon gravitated to a peer group that did not have those values. As I remember we ironically nicknamed them the Jet Set, a gap yah in South America was already a badge of honour. I still encounter that sort of narrow mindedness and complacency in London's affluent suburbs and I am quite sure I am not the only one as it is regularly lampooned in literature and drama eg Sharon Hogans comedy pilot Motherland which hopefully is out for a series struck me as a documentary.

However our suburb still voted for tax rises.....

Howabout I think tuition fees is a bit of a red herring to be honest, and too easily seen a solution / bribe to avoid facing the reality that people want more spending on the NHS and welfare state. I agree with all the points made earlier about the benefits of education to society and I am certainly not happy one of my DD's is starting with over £35k of debt but for me the priority is the NHS and welfare state, and as far as education goes scholarships and a maintenance grant, and better access and mentoring schemes, for less well of students.

Someone needs to ask Tom N-D, Fleetstreetfox and co how they suppose the EU quota system is currently policed.

What you mean the mean nasty EU don't stop us policing our own waters now, and its a matter of enforcement? You mean like the whole FoM thing?

Its almost as if there's a politician somewhere who could have drawn attention to the enforcement problem but instead focused on the whole concept in a way that didn't reflect the issues. Perhaps this was because he didn't turn up to do his job.

Anyway:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/03/brexit-british-citizens-eu-nationals-vote-uk-elections
Most British citizens say EU nationals should be able to vote in UK
Survey finds most people support EU citizens voting locally after Brexit, and nearly half say same for general elections

Better rights for EU citizens than they have now? Fab. Lets get it in the EU citz deal seeing as there is majority support.

I tend to prefer the idea of a wealth tax more than substantial increases in income tax. Whether that's done through higher inheritance tax, or council tax changing to a land tax, or some other form. Such a big difference in wealth in this country is down to property ownership or not.

Motheroffourdragons Good luck to your DS. And good on him for applying. My parents were furious with me ( ) when I applied to Oxford - the perception of it as posh meant she was convinced I'd have a better chance at Cambridge. (She was wrong, at least in my case.) Remind him that this is not his only shot at Oxford. The world is becoming increasingly specialised, so students with the kind of grades to apply will almost certainly need continue their studies with a graduate degree. Anyone who doesn't get in, but goes RG or equivalent, works hard and gets a first can then come to Oxford at that point, if they still want to.

Seeing what my DD1 is having to do to be in any with any shot of an Ivy League place in a few years time, I can't say I'm a fan of the US system. So much stress around proving 'world class' extra-Curriculars, as well as all the extra exams and essays. I'm hoping she goes off the idea.

I just googles Motherland to see if it was on iplayer and here is this massively missing the point, accidentally on purpose no doubt, review from the Telegraph which was to highlight the complacency and exclusive behaviour of the alpha mothers / trophy wives towards the single mother, the stay at home Dad and the frazzled working mother....... www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/09/06/motherhood---another-acerbic-comic-gem-from-sharon-horgan-review/

Sorry "fails to highlight"

Most British citizens say EU nationals should be able to vote in UK

I suspect quite a few of those were surprised to learn that EU nationals can't vote in the UK.

It would be hilarious if Theresa Mays ironwoman stance results in people wanting EU nationals to have more rights in the UK.

Red policing our waters is not the issue in or out the EU. Fair allocation of the fishing rights (quota) is as noted in the articles I posted.

Actually I am Scottish but started work in London with a bunch of mostly private / grammar school educated Oxbridge home counties graduates. Their sense of entitlement was as nothing compared to the Glasgow private school cohort who worked for me when I came home - the Edinburgh lot were not nearly so bad. Purely anecdotal but nonetheless true.

I am also strongly in favour of reform to council tax and move to land tax and would at the very least reverse the Osborne changes to IHT.

ron on student fees average debt is above £40k but for poorer students with full maintenance loan this is considerably higher. They also tend to earn less well than their MC peers. The result is that they mostly will always pay 9% extra in tax but are very very unlikely to repay as much debt as their MC peers. Would make much more sense for them not to incur it in the first place and pay more in higher rate taxes should they be lucky enough to reach the earnings threshold. (It is now perfectly possible to be paying back at 9% while in the tax credits window which makes no sense to me).

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought we still have three fishery protection vessels to protect our waters, that's to cover over 7,000 miles of coast. I think the Dutch have 20 odd, for 283 miles.

Trump might be coming...
Could this Sky News piece possibly be referring to Farage doing a bit of stirring? 'A leading UK politician with connections to the White House hinted a visit could come "much sooner than you think", pointing out that Mr Trump will be visiting Poland and Germany before going to France for the Bastille Day celebrations on 14 July.

I am also strongly in favour of reform to council tax and move to land tax

Or local income tax - as beloved of the Liberal party of old ?

EU nationals who are resident in the UK can vote in local elections already (as well as mayoral or European Parliamentary elections). They can't vote in GEs or - and I thought this was outrageous - national referendums even ones that will have a horrible impact upon their lives.

EU nationals who are resident in the UK can vote in local elections already (as well as mayoral or European Parliamentary elections). They can't vote in GEs

Is that true of UK citizens in other EU countries ?

(Closes eyes and assumes mind reading pose)

Let me guess ... it's something which EU law permits, but does not mandate ? I.e. the UK has - surprise surprise "gold plated" an EU regulation.

For a country that is so obsessed with leaving the EU, the UK probably been most enthusiastic in implementing EU directives that suit it.

Although HMRCs near-criminal "ignorance" of EU customs law is shameful.

EU residents have similar voting rights to the UK ones in Italy and France, I don't know about other EU countries. I think the UK is unusual in that it allows some non-UK nationals - eg, Irish, Maltese, Cypriot and some Commonwealth nationals - the right to vote in general elections and referendums.

Yes to local income tax as well LH. I even voted SNP in Holyrood elections because they promised it - not sure why I was so surprised when they failed to deliver even with LibDem and Green support.

This is basically the system in the US (state tax plus property tax) and it works well enough ime. (The mortgage market and related tax reliefs etc not so much)

As a foreigner, I don't expect to bite in general elections TBH.
First of all where do you draw the pine between those who should be voting (because they will be staying in the U.K. for a long time and those who are merely passing by??)
Second, I think it's the prerogative of the citizens of the country.

As a foreigner, I don't expect to bite in general elections TBH.
First of all where do you draw the pine between those who should be voting (because they will be staying in the U.K. for a long time and those who are merely passing by??)
Second, I think it's the prerogative of the citizens of the country.

Hmm, but couldn't you say the same about Irish/Maltese/Cypriot nationals who reside in the UK but are allowed to vote? Are they making Britain their home or are they just passing through? Perhaps, like PR, we could extend the vote to people who have been here longer than five years? Whatever the rights and wrongs of extending the franchise to non-UK nationals, not allowing the people most likely to be affected by the EU referendum to vote seemed crass.

Hmm, but couldn't you say the same about Irish/Maltese/Cypriot nationals who reside in the UK but are allowed to vote? Are they making Britain their home or are they just passing through?

This argument doesn't really work with us Irish in Britain. Because many of us were born in what counts legally as the UK and spend our whole lives here.

I don't know about Malta and Cyprus but the rights that Irish people have in Britain are reciprocal. British people are AFAIK the only other EU citizens who can vote in Dail elections.