Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

[RedToothBrush]

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

It comes down to the lack of political honesty and proper debate.

I did ask a question on mumsnet a while ago asking if people would pay more tax to support the NHS. Loads of posters said they either paid enough already or simply couldn't afford anymore.

I imagine that there is some truth in that - with rents being stupidly high, and for those buying, house prices climbing to ridiculous levels (I was going to put going through the roof), requiring large mortgages, that people really can't pay more. Couple this with insecure work. So we can't just try to fix the NHS without trying to fix other parts of the economy which are also broken.

www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ireland-should-seriously-consider-irexit-says-uk-think-tank-1.3141692
Ireland should seriously consider Irexit, says UK think tank
Brexit: Right-leaning Policy Exchange says EU negotiating on State’s behalf is untenable

“Whatever the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, there will be a price to pay. For Ireland, there is really no upside to Brexit,” it said.

Arrogant Brits think they should be able to tell the Republic of Ireland what to do.

A recent poll suggested that 88 per cent of Irish people think Ireland should stay in the EU.

Irish citizens say fuck that shit.
Possibly something to do sovereignty amongst other issues.

- that Irish Times article is just unbelievable. I thought I was incapable of cringing any more than I have been but it turns out I was wrong.

with rents being stupidly high, and for those buying, house prices climbing to ridiculous levels (I was going to put going through the roof), requiring large mortgages, that people really can't pay more

peregrina you are right (could also add in childcare and saving for a pension in there too). There's so many people scraping by I can imagine many would really struggle if taxes were raised.
There are however quite a few who say they struggle (people I know) but they have enough for several holidays a year).

I think people have got too used to their money being theirs. There's been no sense of community, maybe this will change post Grenfell.

I for one would be very happy to see better services and I would pay more for them.

I'm another one who would be happy to pay higher taxes to protect our NHS, public services and education. I rememeber when Margaret Thatcher started reducing the basic rate of income tax actually being annoyed because such services were important to me and I did (and still do) believe that there is such a thing as society.

I had an epiphany during the lection campaign and finally put my finger on something that was niggling me about all the statements that "we have an aging population; we can't afford to pay to care for them all".

Someone has to pay for it, unless they are suggesting mass euthanasia . We either pay for it through taxes or we have to put aside vast sums to cover future needs - which we, as individuals, may or may not need to draw upon.

The real problem is that we have chosen to develop a taxation structure, with no sovereign wealth fund, which pays for pensions out of current income. Therefore as the population gets older, we have a reducing tax base with which to cover the costs.

We therefore need a growing economy to help mitigate that. Brexit is going to send us down the plughole . It will give the hard right the justification to pull back on all the services that the state currently provides and say, "sorry not sorry , it's your fault you didn't build up your own nest eggs, but the government can no longer afford such luxuries"

Evenly distributed, yes

Sorry lurking is that you being willing or wider society?

Both.

I'd be happy to pay a bit more tax, but higher taxation needs to be fairly spread from low to high earners. It's at this point that tax rates as percentages may need re-evaluating. Because 1% extra of a £10,000 p.a. salary (for example) is relatively a lot more to that that person than the extra 1% on a £100,000 p.a. salary - even taking into account the notion of higher tax rates.

I don't know what the answer is, btw.

Regarding tax: I can never forget the was P.J. O'Rourke described it in "Parliament of Whores" as money raised by sticking a gun at grannys head. With that in mind, where tax gets spent should be subject to minute scrutiny.

Which reminds me, I can't seem to find the bit in any manifesto about spunking £1 billion of taxpayers money on the DUP. Maybe I need a bigger microscope.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid

I think people have got too used to their money being theirs.

The public, or the government ?

The public, or the government

I meant the public. There are a lot of people who want the money they earn (or that they have) to stay in their pocket.
They don't want their money spent on "undeserving people"

There's a feeling that some people in society are being given money to stay at home with their kids while they go out to work. I don't think people are ready to pay more tax yet.
The tax rise would have to be "sold" to the general public by paying for "worthy" causes. For example pay rise for nurses would do well.

I'd be happier to pay more tax. DH really needs the NHS to keep going! There's no way he'd get any sort of insurance cover and would die without ongoing treatment.

I probably became more left-centre than right-centre when the tories cut income taxes while bleating on about austerity. Either there was a serious need for austerity in which case they should keep everything at a rate which was already in place, or it was ideological.

The thing about taxes, is that they remove money from people meaning they have less to spend on themselves. And if we are not careful, we are then removing choice. Unless we are going down the route of saying "everybody must only use the NHS, and everybody can only send their children to the local state school" which has been tried elsewhere in the world, and - frankly - is shit.

So the higher you make taxes - with the best intentions - you also remove peoples freedoms. We return to "gun at grannys head" picture.

However, all of that said, it's a moot point when existing taxes aren't being collected properly.

It's time for an old friend. The stunning simple single graphic which destroys the myth of austerity, and shows that anyone who believes it is a bellend.

I notice childcare crops up a lot ... I think there's something faintly ludicrous about making some parents go out to work, just to spend almost 100% (or in some cases more ) of their income on childcare.

It's the other end of a telescope which makes people go out to work to pay for care homes for elderly relatives because the state manages to brush carers under the (bulging) carpet.

Taking my "look at what they do" yardstick out, the UK values neither childcare, nor elderly care. As with a lot of things you will be told "matter" but when you actually look at what is being done, reach a different conclusion.

With the obvious disclaimer that like most people grumbling, I can't necessarily suggest a better system .

There's a feeling that some people in society are being given money to stay at home with their kids while they go out to work. I don't think people are ready to pay more tax yet.

Why is it beyond the capability of politicians to point out that 70% of working aged benefits are paid to people in work? In most cases the State is paying people to go to work and have someone else look after their children - the very opposite of the perception.

(The main recipients are within the tax credit system. If they are paying income tax and NI and paying their share of childcare (25%-15%) or are in receipt of HB they will likely be paying approaching 100% marginal tax.)

The real issue with staffing the NHS is the failure to train and retain UK staff.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40476867

X post with LH who makes the point on working age benefits much more eloquently.

There's a feeling that some people in society are being given money to stay at home with their kids while they go out to work.

We're back to "I don't have kids, why should I pay for yours ?" which basically ignores the fact that we all live in "society".

(The fucking damage that evil bitch Thatcher did with her 'credo of ego' will take more generations to die out than will live for).

I don''t so why should I pay for yours ?

I never liked that philosophy, and getting older, I like it less.

Perhaps we are witnessing some sort of groundswell of shifting demographics where the newly-voting are less Tory and more Socialist than previous generations ?

I was far more likely to vote Tory in the 1980s (and actually did) than I am now.

Interesting report from Dominic Grieve. Though he would do well to look more critically at some of his sources, and appreciate that the raises plenty of problems regarding extremism itself and is not a mainstream, representative body for most British Muslims. And in fact there isn't really any such thing, which makes "building better relationships" even harder.

I would be willing in principle to pay more tax to keep the NHS, education system, libraries etc going.

However my take home salary has already been significantly reduced over the Coalition / Tory years by the increases in tax, NI and payments to my public sector pension, whilst the pay freeze means that in real terms my salary has been reduced... A significant increase in taxes plus a significant increase in interest rates (and thus my mortgage payments) would leave me pretty screwed

Amongst my peers who did well out of Thatchers Britain there is a feeling that we should be paying more tax because the inequality we already had was unfair, let alone the more recent impacts of austerity, disability cuts, the impact on the NHS etc. However we tend to be from less well of backgrounds originally and were enabled by free tuition, maintenance grants etc. and probably have a greater degree of empathy than those who are from comfortable middle class Home Counties. In my experience the probably rarely applies.

I was hearing the same when canvassing, even on the deprived housing estate where the actually working classes, possibly homeowning?, live alongside families with greater disadvantage. Albeit that in the London suburbs getting well paid work is much easier than in deprived areas in the north, say.

Wasn't the swing to the left demographically driven by educated urban voters rather than the poor working class ? Surely a symptom of an appetite for increased public spending / increased taxation.

Yy to the problem of undervalued labour in caring for children and the elderly.

We currently see families spending lots of money on childcare in order to work; as we live for longer and the retirement age goes up, I suspect we will see the same at the other end with children having to work in order to pay their parents' care home bills

Sorry, dyslexic syntax, in my experience the probably could be removed from that sentence.

Thanks Red. Placemarking will never have time to read all this

Interesting ron. Perhaps the pitch should by at higher rate tax or NI within this income band or a more radical shake up of self employed NI and benefits than PH botched last time? Could even sweeten the pill by lowering student fees and / or reforming repayment system as part of the trade off?

Brits abroad - notes on the forums held for British citizens in the Netherlands. Has anyone been to similar events in other countries? www.gov.uk/government/news/open-forums-on-the-uks-exit-from-the-european-union

The economic minister reported that 730 jobs have already come to the Netherlands as a result of Brexit but there is 'reluctance' to engage in active recruitment "That is benefitting from the misery of someone who is a good partner to us."

Anyone else channel a bit of Bob Marley reading this:

www.itv.com/news/2017-06-30/cambridge-university-warns-of-brexodus-without-improved-offer-to-eu-citizens/

The Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University has intervened over the government's offer to EU Nationals living and working in Britain. Simply put, he doesn't think it went anywhere near far enough. And he fears for its impact on the 808-year-old institution.

(contd).

Those who remember the (running) gags in "Yes Minister" about how influential civil servants alma maters were (there was a joke about the M11 only being built when a permanent secretary from Cambridge was in place) will look forward to the reception they would get in the future, if this continues ....