Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

[RedToothBrush]

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

That Merkel gif rolling eyes at Putin who is looking so like someone who is trying to ask you out on a date despite you explaining patiently why it's a very bad idea

UsuallyDormant, I am stealing SodomandBegorrah for a namechange.

I second DividedKingdom's suggestion.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deals-uk-benefits-limited-philip-hammond-eu-warning-a7829951.html

OH my. Hammond leaving the bunker to engage with reality. And doing so publicly. So Liam Fox's fiefdom has had three dozen trips to 'sniff' out new trade deals. Especially keen on Australia. It is a good jaunt, isn't it?

Another Con idiot on Daily Politics. Acting like he knows exactly what they are doing. It is like the driver of your car puts a blindfold on. No probs about trade deal. Bullshit his way along to give the impression to the audience the gov't have a clue. How the EU are full of corporate protectionism. How the CBI were out for themselves (trade being selfish is a new Tory spin. Strange). Legatum institute being quoted as gospel. Of course, the UK will just have zero tariffs on imports from all countries in the world. There goes all home industry and farming. However in that article May was going to have a chat with Xi on steel dumping. But the UK blocked attempts by the EU to protect member states from this.

When the hell will they acknowledge the EU is a rules based organisation? They aren't being awkward because they have single market rules. Barnier said there is no punishment. It will be the UK bringing it all on itself. If anything there will be a smile on the UK Gov't faces because it is bring some instability and difficulties on the EU itself. It will hurt the UK more, though.

The bit about DD not knowing (like Trump) that Germany don't do bilateral trade deals. And he is the Brexit minister. Fcking hell, is that why the UK couldn't work the room in the EU at all. They didn't engage at a political level. Or even know how the EU works No excuses, though. The UK have been a member of the EU for decades. Quite a bad show. Now we know why they are talking utter bllocks when they talk about the EU.

Justin is like Sporticus, isn't he. Nothing he can't handle. I suppose it is like having your kids show you how to handle technology at the meeting.

I think that clip is being widely misinterpreted just for fun.

This is an old article, from 2016.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/roberto-saviano-britain-corrupt-mafia-hay-festival-a7054851.html#gallery
“It’s not the bureaucracy, it’s not the police, it’s not the politics but what is corrupt is the financial capital. 90 per cent of the owners of capital in London have their headquarters offshore.

“Jersey and the Caymans are the access gates to criminal capital in Europe and the UK is the country that allows it. That is why it is important why it is so crucial for me to be here today and to talk to you because I want to tell you , this is about you, this is about your life, this is about your government.”

From the G20 article:

"Diplomats said that at one point French President Emmanuel Macron tried to explain trade policy to Mr Trump, holding up his iPhone as a prop to illustrate import and export deficits between China and the US." < weeps>

Maybe Macron would be kind enough to repeat his trade demo for DD & Fox if they visit < weeps again >

We've discussed it here before, but the repeal bill is dangerous.
Incredible that there aren't headlines & discussion on TV and all other media warning about the extraordinary extra powers it would give the govt:

It would give ministers powers to use “secondary legislation” to change laws after leaving, i.e. without going through Parliament.
That's not democratic; it's rule by dictat.

"Because many of the laws and regulations that will be transferred across relate to EU institutions that will no longer apply after Brexit,
ministers will have to make a huge number of tweaks in a hurry, without going through the full scrutiny of parliament

Officials estimate they will have to put forward more than 1,000 statutory instruments to make those changes."

British law and the unwritten constitution work by precedent
What a dreadful precedent for any future govt to make use of and extend

Maybe Corby just wants a repeal act for when he's PM, to ram through his socialist paradise laws ??????????

That's what each party ignores when they give themselves extra powers:
Those powers remain when the other party gets in
Then they add more powers etc etc

Who loses ?
We do, every time.

btw, Torygraph sources keep saying the only reason they don't topple May is that they are terrified of a "marxist" JC becoming PM.

Consider how each successive govt increases surveillance on us all
To keep us safe, naturally

Trump says we will have a "very powerful deal" very, very quickly

G20: UK-US trade deal to happen quickly, says Trump
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40540340

TTIP on steroids anyone? I know some who voted Leave because they were concerned about TTIP despite it being explained to them that our own government was all ready to sign it and that it was the E27 who had concerns about it potentially damaging countries' sovereignty in favour of corporations

No wonder Trump is Putin’s favourite: he’s making America weak again

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/07/trump-putin-america-soft-power-g20-summit

"Remember, few believe that Moscow interfered in the 2016 election because it reckoned it could put Donald Trump in the White House.

The more modest goal was to damage the future President Hillary Clinton.

US weakness was, and remains, the overriding objective.
And on that, the Trump investment is delivering handsomely."

Putin wanted Brexit, to make Britain weak.
He wanted Le Pen to make France weak.

A common theme ...

From what's been said publicly, I'm fervently hoping that Hammond is PM before Corbyn gets a sniff of No 10 although I am aware that we have to be careful what we wish for when it comes to Tory PMs.

Considering how hard Hammond seems to be working pretty hard to keep the public sector pay cap and continue thr crippling austerity agenda, I'm afraid I really can't agree with you on that lala.

Well, that sentence went a bit weird.

Hammond says UK must 'hold nerve' over public pay
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40487982

And remember this from March? Let's not get to starry eyed over spreadsheet Phil. I would quite like to keep the NHS to be honest

Budget 2017: Philip Hammond accused of back-door NHS privatisation by funding 'shady' reform plans
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-budget-2017-nhs-privatisation-stps-philip-hammond-back-door-unite-sustainability-transformation-a7619456.html

George Peretz QC

Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico

The classical British view is that democracy requires, for it to be better than liberal despotism, voters to hv political maturity. +
We are not Americans believing anywhere, no matter how politically primitive, ignorant or corrupt is fit for democratic self-determination
Think of the catastrophes that particular American Error has visited upon the world!
One of the great merits of the EU (perhaps its original purpose) has bn the entrenching of liberal despotism to resist democratic errors.
When the UK leaves the EU we'll be abandoning its liberal despotic safety net. We do so with our checks+balances atrophied by EU membership
1 vw: that shld be ok cos our electorate, with its long democratic tradition, is mature enough to operate without checks/balances for a time
That remains to be proven, in the age of Corbyn. We may yet regret losing our liberal despotic safety net with no checks/balances of our own

@GeorgePeretzQC
Some will be (understandably) amused by this thread because of its source: pro Brexit @andrew_lilico. But there is a very important point.
He sees the EU as having exercised a "liberal despotic" check on potentially illiberal majorities. But he did not see UK needing that check.
His mind has been changed by Corbyn.
Whatever your views on Corbyn, Lilico is right to note that UK has no real checks on a Govt with a HoC majority.
A majority usually having support of well under 50% of voters due to our capricious and disempowering voting system.
The absence of checks leads to systematically poor government. Poll tax. Policy churn (see www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/policy-reinvention-leads-huge-waste-and-little-progress . Handling of
Brexit.
Also potentially threats to basic liberties.
The EU helped by providing an enormous check: forced stability in key policy areas; with ECHR helped guarantee fair process and liberties.
That check, as a result partly of @andrew_lilico's efforts, is about to vanish. He is right to be alarmed by his handiwork.
But he still hasn't quite got the problem right: it is not democracy in the form of illiberal voters falling for Corbyn.
Rather, it is a systemic problem in the UK constitution, which fails basic tests of either democracy or constitutional good order.
Which delivers consistently poor government/policy disasters, as well as being exposed to potential illiberal minorities (of left or right).
Those problems existed well before the 2017 election, as many observed.
It is unfortunate that it appears to have taken the threat of a government they dislike to alert others to these issues.

Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico
Replying to @GeorgePeretzQC
Aside from quibbles regarding the nature of our constitution's failings, you miss a really key pt. During the euref, I argued, in terms+
+that one of the key "prizes" of Brexit wld be forcing us to address our atrophied checks & balances. That's not a new thought for me.+
+The challenge is to survive the transitional period of rebuilding what had atrophied, without disaster. The maturity of our electorate +
+should have bn the answer, I thought. The rise of Corbyn suggests it was not. Instead we shld start rebuilding now, if we can.

George Peretz QC @GeorgePeretzQC
·
19m

Replying to @andrew_lilico
Thanks. I get the point: though I always saw EU law as a key factor pulling us to better government.
It certainly played a huge part in the improvement of our system of judicial review: restoring an atrophied check/balance.
I also hoped that experience of working closely with better systems (Germany) would make our politicians want to move UK in that direction.
But unfortunately most of our politicians and press remain ignorant of continental politics and government. Language and obsession with US.
But I see argument that a shock was need to get us to reform. Problem that the "shake it and see what happens" approach is desperately risky
And on the basis of what I think almost all outside No 10 agree is hopeless handling of Brexit to date, the risk isn't paying off.

I'm no fan of austerity and I've never voted Conservative in my life but, at the moment, Hammond appears to be the only person willing to roll back Brexit. Corbyn can talk about removing the paycap until we all fall at his feet but, if he's prepared to let Brexit happen - and he seems more than happy to do this - then it will mean diddly squat because the economy will crash and, I hate to say it, people in the public sector will be lucky to hold onto their jobs much less get pay rises. For that reason, I am a reluctant Hammond-ite.

Re Liam Fox department travels, this is such a peculiar record...published on the DExEU page for 'transparency'. www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/623836/Senior_Officials_Transparency_Jan-Mar_2017_-_Travel.csv/preview

Marina is on fine form again. She is almost as angry as I am about what passes for Tory grandees these days.

David Cameron, why oh whyare you still talking?
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/07/david-cameron-speech-austerity-marina-hyde

I mean, the one merciful thing you can usually say of pilot error disasters is that they tend to claim the lives of those who made the cock-up. Yet seemingly every week, Cameron can be found on some lucrative platform or other, lecturing an audience too bored, blase or beaten to call bullshit. For the rest of us, it’s like hearing someone who ploughed an Airbus 380 into a music festival talk about what albums he’s currently listening to.

According to Cameron’s spokesman, the former PM “never discusses” the size of his payment for this service. What he did discuss in Seoul was his austerity pay cap, explaining that those who criticised austerity were cavalier and “selfish”. And as time goes by, I’m sure people will be ever more pleased to take lectures from him on the costs of recklessness, when his own party-political decision will be paid for by their schools and hospitals and whatnot.

Although her knockout blow is for Leadsom:
Still, great British minds think alike, and it was only the other week that Andrea Leadsom was on Newsnight explaining: “It would be helpful if broadcasters were willing to be a bit patriotic.” “Sorry,” queried Emily Maitlis. “Are you accusing me of being unpatriotic for questioning how negotiations are going?” Oh, Emily! You can’t get into that one with Andrea. She’s Brexit’s little ray of sunshine. It would be like explaining quantum mechanics to Scrappy Doo.

Even so, you may find yourself chillingly mesmerised by the fact that Andrea always smiles when she’s delivering these assaults. She has that homicidally saccharine smile you normally see in customer services operatives who are administering a knockout financial blow. She’d be amazing on the Ryanair baggage desk.

It would appear that Andrew Lilico is all in favour of democracy as long as the electorate votes "correctly"

If they vote for Jeremy Corbyn the "wrong way" it is because they are not sophisticated or educated enough

How arrogant

Came across this link that I shared on Facebook 2 years ago
https://worldaffairs.blog/2015/07/03/greece-the-one-biggest-lie-you-are-being-told-by-the-media/

Although it's specifically referring to Greece, there are many uncomfortable parallels with the UK, especially with the direction that a hard-Brexit-obsessed government wants to take

Corbyn can talk about removing the paycap until we all fall at his feet but, if he's prepared to let Brexit happen

How do you suggest he stops it lala?

He may not be able to just, but then he shouldn't be promising the moon on a stick, should he? Ignoring the whacking great hole that Brexit will put in public finances doesn't inspire confidence tbh. Bit of honesty now we're no longer fighting an election would not go amiss.