Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

[RedToothBrush]

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

"On the subject of uni DH and I are both agreed that we would not want dd to go straight to uni after school unless she was absolutely sure and focused on a career and direction."

The problem with that is that they are 18 so you don't really get a say. You just have to pay to help the out.

What I meant was that I wouldn't be pushing her to go and would encourage her not to until she was ready. If she was determined to go to uni then that would be super and I would be thrilled for her to go. I have just met tons of students who didn't actually want to be there, they had been told by parents and teachers it was what they should do.

My immediate thought when loans were first brought in, was that it would accelerate the brain drain of educated professionals emigrating.
Providing they didn't have any future UK pension or inheritance, they could just take all savings and investments with them, then wave goodbye to debt.

Very tempting especially for those with larger debts, after several years medical or postgrad studies

Civil debt in the Uk cannot be pursued in the USA:
a gym bud who works in a bank told me they were stung for 100k when a US guy just walked out on his loan debt (business) and returned home.

If a govt did abolish fees, they would be under pressure to wipe out existing loans.

"Education, education, education" turned out to be "debt, debt, debt"

At those interest rates, yet another way to fleece the non-wealthy

"There should be means testing, with all fees and maintenance grant paid for students from poorer families, phasing out to zero for income above a certain level."

If you means test the adult students themselves they will nearly all pass (no/low earnings, no/low assets).

I still after 40 yrs don't understand why an adult should be means tested on parental income. The answer is, I think, that it is too expensive not to and people are used to it in relation to student finance. For instance why don't we means test hb and tax credits of a 27 yr old on their parents' income? Because it would not occur to anyone that that was relevant.

I thought the student loan debts could be enforced overseas although I realise it is expensive to bring proceedings. Not sure if SFC ever does this. That in fact is one reason why legally the government made them loans I thought - graduate tax can be avoided by going overseas, whereas the loan is technically repayable whereever you are - and when you come back for Christmas!

The fact that the givernemnet can give up having people paying their loan fully is only because the interest rate is so high that they've in effect have already been paid......
When I was a student, I did get a loan. It was at 0% and had to be paid back....

My way out of it (or rather the dcs) is for them to go back to France (or somewhere in the EU) to study wo having the huge weight of the debt on their shoulder.
So I'm making them working hard on their french. I'm sure they will thank me for that eventually

bigley I totally agree with your rant about 18 year old leaping straight into a degree they may not be suited for.
Far better to take a break, work for a bit and choose something that will really excite you.

Most folk subsidise their DC at least until graduation now, usually later.
This is where students from poor families suffer now - their families can't afford to do this
and they never receive later on any help with rent or house deposit, never any inheritance.

That's after all those years at school of being the poor relation, not being able to participate fully, such as on the foreign trips, looked down on for not contributing to the charity collections, wearing tatty old school uniform ....
The reality of poverty at school is probably no better 40-50 years on from my experiences.

So, I don't find it so terrible if better off students - after 18 years of privilege - are assessed on family income until 21

bigly same here, we've long been of the conclusion that we'd strongly discourage our dc from uni unless they had some sort of clear focus on what they want or need. We will have to be very up front that there's nothing there in our bank for them to rely on so it's a massive choice for them I wish they didn't have to make.

As posted, UK civil debt cannot be pursued in many popular destinations abroad for expats.
There are no sanctions that can be applied if a debtor later visits the UK - provided they don't have any assets in the uk to grab, such as savings accounts, shares, property etc

BUT I think it can be pursued within EU countries - I bet the govt ensures that continues, whatever form Brexit takes, or doesn't.

Some other EU countries hold certain degree courses in English - Germany does.
The fees are zero or v low for EU or home students
Another opportunity lost for the UK young

Slight aside, but if your kids do want to go to uni at 18 (I was bloody desperate to, but I lived in the most boring place on Earth), then I would strongly suggest you advise them to look at degrees with an industrial placement year. These are so, so useful, I'm not sure why they're not an integral part of most vaguely practical degrees. To come out of uni with a years work experience is invaluable and means you can skip doing a masters. Pays often crap but it's worth a year of low pay tbh.

Spreadsheet Phil anyone?
free trade deals little difference

My gdd hasn't made her.mind up what she wants to do for sure. She's passionate about lots of things. She is only 15 but she really needs to start thinking a bit in the direction she wants to go in as she has to pick ALevels soon. Her friend from her swimming days is going down the higher btec route as she says she doesn't want the debt and she hopes for an apprenticeship after her btecs. She is doing sport science as she is into it in a big way
I'm beginning to think that is a good way to go and you avoid a massive debt. She will probably end up better off than my gdd who is more academically able. Brains isn't everything it seems.

I did suggest an accountancy apprenticeship once to my gdd. £170 a week free travel and paid training leading eventually to a degree. She gave me a withering look even though I explained she could earn £40k plus after qualifying. Pfft!

Sostenuto

The firm dh works for hires the same amount of graduates as A level students

Paid the same and they train the same (hopefully as long as they both work hard) receiving the same qualifications

Thats what i am hoping ds2 does

These appear to be the in thing ATM
www.leeds.ac.uk/forstaff/news/article/5677/degree_apprenticeships_a_new_way_to_learn

Spreadsheet Phil seems to be the only one talking a modicum of sense IMO. Is this a pitch for the Leadership, do you think?

www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/theresa-mays-opponents-are-planning-to-make-the-next-phase?utm_term=.ho0wk9M2O#.vom5ry7Ee

Theresa May's Opponents Are Planning To Make The Next Phase Of Brexit Brutal For Her Fragile Government

Passing the repeal bill will be the biggest parliamentary challenge of the prime minister's career. Opponents are plotting to "string it up like a fucking Christmas tree with amendments".

It is the first and most complicated of several pieces of legislation May needs to pass to lay the legal ground for Britain's withdrawal from the EU – and will kick off a long, messy political fight that will make other parliamentary arguments about Brexit seem minor by comparison, according to MPs, party strategists, and Whitehall insiders.

“This is literally a once-in-a-generation opportunity to fuck over the government,” a senior Liberal Democrat adviser told BuzzFeed News. “It’s the only way I can describe it. It’s that good. It’s going to be amazing.”

Iperegrina i cannot answer for fear my love of spreadsheets blinds me

Wrt the repeal bill, the initial part isn't the problem is it? We officially take all embedded eu law as our law. It's the rest of it. If they put something through without Henry viii that'd be awesome. Albeit somewhat binding of government time.

Passing the repeal bill will be the biggest parliamentary challenge of the prime minister's career. Opponents are plotting to "string it up like a fucking Christmas tree with amendments".

I will believe the Tory and the 2/3rds of the Labour party rebellion when I see it. I don't mind being called cynical - I wasn't prepared to believe the YouGov survey of a hung Parliament, and got a delightful bonus when it happened.

Plus being able to boot out our Tory MP three years earlier than expected. 9th June was a happy day.

Yes, the issue is that it's a massive power grab by the executive, and also that it makes Brexit irriversible (this is what I remember Jo Maugham saying a while ago).

Building the big new institute in one of the worlds most expensive cities-GREAT idea hmm
I always thought the idea behind it will fail miserably if London living costs keep going up at this rate. I hadn't even imagined how Cambridge will go. Again, it is not in the power of scientists to control property prices and no government has shown the will to do it so far. So the rough geography of the institute was planned keeping major existing transport links into the city I think. Again, no one is controlling living costs so that sounds like a stupid idea to expect some low paid PhD or a contract based post doc to spend thousands each year to commute such distances. Never mind the havoc it creates for the rest of the day. It takes a big toll on women scientists disproportionately.
I think that article posted upthread the the Royal Society head is spot on. Example of AstraZeneca moving to be near Cambridge is a good example. We need to develop more spread out science and tech facisilites but it needs to come with simultaneously improved infrastructure for transport links and housing. Imagine trying to buy in Cambridge with a post doc salary.

The world is moving so fast towards knowledge-based economy and we have the basic academic infrasturtucre in place for that. But the supporting infrastructure (travelling, living, work experience) needs massive investment. Another very important thing is to put real hard work into schools to get a great output for input into the academy/industry. Junk in will only lead to junk out.
So when I say we need to work on education in this country on war-like emergency basis, I really do mean it.

On student loans: my work experience abroad in a different set up brought me into contact with a similar kind of system that we have here for student loans. I was shocked to see that the main expectation of the outcome was that majority of that loan will never be paid back.

Hamburg looks warm and welcoming tonight.