If we just cancelled Brexit....

[GraceGrape]

...do you think there would really be that much fuss?

I posted on the id card thread that it would be much less hassle if we could just cancel Brexit. It got me wishful thinking that this could actually be possible!

Even the most ardent leavers are starting to downplay its likelihood of success. Key figures like Gisela Stuart have admitted it's all been handled disastrously. The economy is starting to look a bit shit before we've even left. According to the pro- leave camp, we all apparently knew there would be a recession but it would still be "worth it" if you're independently wealthy like Garage, IDS or Bojo maybe.

Anyway, I think it would be typically British if we just harrumphed a bit and said "Well, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. The referendum was only advisory y'know."

As a nation, we don't tend to like big changes so I think a lot of people would be secretly relieved. There might be a bit of grumbling, and maybe Farage would leave the country in disgust as an added bonus. We could then sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened, as the Brits tend to do with some of the more unsavoury parts of our history anyway. It would also save us the humiliation of seeing David Davis try to do any more negotiating.

Nauticant, that picture was etched onto my mind right from when I first saw it on the morning after the referendum.

They were scared stiff. Like a pair of frightened rabbits in the headlights. I believed then that one of the biggest lies of the Leave campaign was that the leader of it, Bojo himself, actually believed in leaving the EU. I thought then (and still do now) that he hoped for a narrow Remain victory, so that he could have just enough leverage to oust Cameron, mount a leadership challenge and take over as PM, with very little having changed. He would then be PM but would not need the non-existent plan for Brexit and would be able to simply carry on unimpeded for the rest of the Parliamentary term.

To be fair to Gove, he did put his name forward for PM. This is despite having stated that he would be totally unsuited for the job, and which his party agreed with.

BoJo - he cleared off to play cricket, I recall.

Topseyt: I still boggle that the Referendum was held to solve a war going on in the Tory Party and the most visible Tory supporter campaigned for it while not wanting to win solely to support his ambitions in the Tory Party.

The natural party of government, my arse.

I don't think Boris Johnson was ever looking to become PM. He has too much other stuff that pays better with a lot less hassle

So which EU law and policies are you desperate to get rid of?

Ending freedom of movement for one, but other than that I am more concerned about us being able to determine our own future and respond flexibly to events in the world.

It all sounds a bit "You're not the boss of me"

Gosh, yes, what a quaint meaningless notion, to want to live in a country were the population has democratic control and can decide on laws and policies

It all sounds a bit "You're not the boss of me"

It is exactly that.
The EU shouldn't 'be the boss of' the UK.
That's not what we signed up to.

So pleased that some Brexiters want to scrap International law also - which is the logical conclusion of deciding our own laws and policies.

I clicked on this thread by mistake and noticed that 'being the boss' and democratic control and laws had been mentioned so I hope it's ok to chip in?

I know it's not etiquette to mention other threads but I've made these points elsewhere..... The MPs are the boss, not the EU.

In fact we could now say the DUP have paid to be the boss.

The Article 50 white paper even acknowledged this clearly, it said we have always had sovereignty but some times it didn't feel like it.

Lone matters- MPs* *have 100% control on the following many rules and regulations :Health policy. Education. Fiscal policy. Public expenditure. Monetary policy. Income tax. Corporation tax. Capital gains tax. Inheritance tax. Border control and security. Non-EU immigration. Pensions. Welfare. Foreign policy decisions. Defence. Military Intelligence. Development cooperation and humanitarian aid. All local government. National policing. Crime. Media and press regulation. Family law. Property law and succession of estates.

Joint matters -We agreed to have a joint say (currently 73/748 so 9.7 %) over the following matters.Energy.Climate.Environment.Agriculture. Some Employment. Consumer.Transport. Some crime. Asylum.VAT. Foreign policy (EU). Single Market.Competition.Fisheries.EU migration. So we jointly decided what happens here and in the other 27 member states too.

We made the pragmatic decision to share some joint law making power with our neighbours over matters requiring decent standards such as Agriculture, environment and food like cucumbers. This was in return for open access to a $16.6 trillion annual market, a decision that paid off- strengthening the UK’s economic position hugely.

Voting records since 1999 show that we agreed with the regulations passed jointly by us and other member states 2,466 times. We only voted ‘No’ to laws passed 56 times and abstained 70 times. UK ministers agreed with what our and the other MEPs were doing about light bulbs etc 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and disagreed only 2% of the time.

So the mind set we are ruled by a boss is incorrect :
a.We are ( were) a disproportionately large part of that Parliament ; and
b. Our government agreed with the decisions anyway.

cross

Gosh, yes, what a quaint meaningless notion, to want to live in a country were the population has democratic control and can decide on laws and policies

But like I said what actual change do you want? What policy are you keen to be scrapped?

As I said, When ending freedom of movement, which I think is a huge issue and one which will become increasingly important over the next few years. Refugee policy also, which is connected. The EU seems to be putting increasing pressure on the eastern EU states to accept refugee numbers they don't want. I wouldn't want the UK to be in that situation in a few years.

But as I said before, other than those really important issues, I am more concerned about us being able to determine our own future and respond flexibly to events in the world. We have been through quite a stable time in Europe (not completely obvs) but I think we are heading into turbulent times, and I think the EU is too unwieldy and undemocratic to respond adequately.

Cross - where would you like refugees to go exactly?

Not in their back yard anyway.

FWIW I'm well over the hill and have moved much further to the left after witnessing the injustice and inequality resulting from unbridled capitalism

Same here, I'm much more left wing now than in my 20s. Not a socialist, but definitely more in favour of the welfare state, higher taxes, and greater state involvement in the markets / regulations.

Me too.

Do you really believe that all the current "refugees" are really refugees allegretto , not migrants?

Are you not slightly bemused why the vast proportion of them are 16-40 year old men?

Do you think it is good for their home countries and for the women, children and old men left behind for the young men to leave?

Do you believe that allowing large numbers of migrants in is a more effective way of helping people than providing aid and support to the countries?

Are you concerned about any of the problems being seen in Sweden and France caused by immigration on a scale which seems to be making integration impossible?

Do you not worry about the thousands drowning at sea because our refugee policy basically encourages people to risk their, and their children's lives?

logically the UK wouldn't be able to blame many of its ills on the EU. That's likely to happen, right?

They'll just blame them on "Moaning Remainers" instead.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/italy-considers-closing-its-ports-to-ships-from-libya

In the four days between 24 and 27 June, 8,863 migrants arrived in Italy, including more than 5,000 on Monday alone, according to the International Office for Migration. A further 2,000 people were reported to have arrived on Tuesday.

The June surge comes after the arrival of 60,228 migrants in Italy by sea in the first five months of 2017, with 1,562 reported to have died in the Mediterranean. The number of migrants from Libya this year is on course to exceed the 200,000 recorded last year.

There were 22,993 arrivals in May. Since the beginning of 2016, only July and October last year have seen higher numbers of arrivals by sea. Nigerian is the first declared nationality of around 15% of those arriving in 2017, followed by Bangladeshi (12%), Guinean (10%) and Ivorian (9%).

I don't think Boris Johnson was ever looking to become PM. He has too much other stuff that pays better with a lot less hassle

Oh no - I think he very much wants to be PM. It's not about the money, it's about the prestige and the glory.

Both he and TM were/are desperate to be PM. Theresa May possibly partly because of her age, was even willing to commit career suicide to get the job. BoJo has slightly more youth on his side and is willing to bide his time until the job looks a little less fraught with difficulties.

cross you are dodging the question. I didn't say that at all. I know a lot are migrants. I was talking to one this morning and he was from South Africa! But you said, "The EU seems to be putting increasing pressure on the eastern EU states to accept refugee numbers they don't want" so we were both talking about refugees. Where do you want them to go?

Also - whether migrant or refugee, the people arriving on boats are in danger. Do you want them to drown?

Also - whether migrant or refugee, the people arriving on boats are in danger. Do you want them to drown?

I'm not going to converse with you further unless you apologise for or withdraw that question. I see little point trying to have a rational discussion with someone who is going to make comments like that to me.

Sorry, I will rephrase the question, I didn't mean to cause offence but you don't seem to be willing to answer. Seeing as we can't stop people crossing the sea and not picking them up means that they will die, what do you want to do with them?

Do you really believe that all the current "refugees" are really refugees allegretto , not migrants? Are you not slightly bemused why the vast proportion of them are 16-40 year old men?

Oh, here we go.

Young healthy men are more able to travel than women with children and older people. They are the ones more likely to be able to work.

Fuck, why am I bothering? Lost the will to live typing that.

respond flexibly to events in the world.
I think we all know what that means.

Yet again, a discussion about the sovereignty that Brexit will restore to the UK is summed up by Leavers as "immigrants". It happens just about every time and I'm long past the belief in this majority of Leavers voting from high-minded informed views about the ECJ.

Actually a lot of them are migrants but that doesn't mean they can be left in the sea. However, getting back to the refugees, I am still waiting to hear what the answer is.