If we just cancelled Brexit....

[GraceGrape]

...do you think there would really be that much fuss?

I posted on the id card thread that it would be much less hassle if we could just cancel Brexit. It got me wishful thinking that this could actually be possible!

Even the most ardent leavers are starting to downplay its likelihood of success. Key figures like Gisela Stuart have admitted it's all been handled disastrously. The economy is starting to look a bit shit before we've even left. According to the pro- leave camp, we all apparently knew there would be a recession but it would still be "worth it" if you're independently wealthy like Garage, IDS or Bojo maybe.

Anyway, I think it would be typically British if we just harrumphed a bit and said "Well, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. The referendum was only advisory y'know."

As a nation, we don't tend to like big changes so I think a lot of people would be secretly relieved. There might be a bit of grumbling, and maybe Farage would leave the country in disgust as an added bonus. We could then sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened, as the Brits tend to do with some of the more unsavoury parts of our history anyway. It would also save us the humiliation of seeing David Davis try to do any more negotiating.

When ending freedom of movement, which I think is a huge issue and one which will become increasingly important over the next few years. Refugee policy also, which is connected. The EU seems to be putting increasing pressure on the eastern EU states to accept refugee numbers they don't want. I wouldn't want the UK to be in that situation in a few years

This is a case of be careful what you wish for. I'm guessing the reason you want to remove freedom of movement is so there is less immigration?
The number of nurses applying to come to the uk from the EU has dropped. We actually need immigrants.

Regarding refugees, I guess we will have to disagree on that one. I personally think we don't take enough.

Yet again, a discussion about the sovereignty that Brexit will restore to the UK is summed up by Leavers as "immigrants

nauticant I have to agree with you. When I ask Leavers what they actually expect from Brexit. An actual tangible benefit, freedom of movement is where we end up.

Sorry, I will rephrase the question, I didn't mean to cause offence but you don't seem to be willing to answer. Seeing as we can't stop people crossing the sea and not picking them up means that they will die, what do you want to do with them?

Thanks. I wrote a long post but lost it. Basically, I think we need to look at the factors encouraging people to risk their lives in boats and address these. I think the current asylum system of saying you are supposed to claim asylum in the first safe country, but then you can claim in any country you physically can get to, is not working and is encouraging people to take desperate steps. I don't know what the answer is but what we are doing at present doesn't seem to be working.

Young healthy men are more able to travel than women with children and older people. They are the ones more likely to be able to work.

So women and children would be incapable of getting in a boat on the coast of Africa, and getting picked up by a rescue boat a few miles off the African coast? And women would be incapable of working in Europe? No, I'm not buying that.

Sorry, the picture is not meant to be there!

Basically, I think we need to look at the factors encouraging people to risk their lives in boats and address these.

We are already doing this! In fact, Italy managed to cut back on boats leaving Libya a few years ago but current events have seen a huge increase. I agree that we need to work on the problem at the root but in the meantime we need to do something with all the people who are arriving. It is not fair that countries like Italy bear the brunt of this crisis. Part of the beauty of the EU is that (in theory!) it enables us to work together to find a solution so that no one country is disadvantaged by its geographical position. It seems rather mean for the UK (which is already doing very little) to just say they don't want to help at all. I am sure if all the refugees (and migrants) were being rescued in the Channel, everyone would be clamouring for help from the rest of Europe instead of saying, no, the current system isn't working.

respond flexibly to events in the world
I think we all know what that means

Oooh, do tell me what I meant twofingers.

It would be great if you can tell me, because, not being able to see into the future, I don't know what I was referring to.

I didn't say women were 'incapable', I said men were 'more likely'.

As I'm sure you well know.

allegretto What are the current events which are leading to a huge increase in refugees or migrants arriving in Italy from Nigeria, Bangladesh Guinea and Ivory Coast (which the article I linked to says are the largest proportions of the arrivals)?

I actually don't object to "controlling the numbers of immigrants" being the mean reason for Leavers to support Brexit WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid.

What I do object to is the contortions many Leavers go through to hide this. This business of fabricating this majority of Leavers sitting on a lofty plane who were focused on "sovereignty" and constitutional matter. Or the ludicrous "no, it's because the EU discriminates against us having Commonwealth immigrants instead and that's just so unfair". I mean, pull the other one.

Sapphire You said

Young healthy men are more able to travel than women with children and older people. They are the ones more likely to be able to work.

i.e. that men are more able to travel and more able to work.

But the discussion has now moved to immigration from outside the EU.....

All serious studies show the impact of EU immigration brings a proven benefit not a detriment.

If we leave the EU that does not address non EU migration.

The facts from both Treeza's own department's and other detailed research was that....

"EU immigrants pay more in taxes than they take out in welfare and the use of public services. They therefore help reduce the budget deficit. Immigrants do not have a negative effect on local services such as crime, education, health, or social housing."

EU born residents only equate to 5% of the population anyway. If the gov and Leavers believe (against the evidence) that there is a problem, then why isn't equivalent attention given to illegal immigration or on non EU migration?

As far as can see the focus for the last 12 months and the current negotiations are all about limiting French,Germans, Poles etc but the concerns from this thread and others appear to be about non EU migration which we have always been able to control unilaterally if needed.

@cross The people from Bangladesh are mainly migrants who have lived in Libya for many years but recently the situation there has got worse and foreigners are being targeted. I have met several people from Ivory Coast and Liberia - both countries which have had (and still do) have turbulent areas. (I am in Italy btw and so meet a lot of people who are here from these areas!) I am by no means an expert but my point is that Italy (or Greece or Malta) cannot be expected to deal with this problem alone - it's just not possible! And it doesn't really matter at this point if you say that we need to deal with the problem at its roots - of course, we do! Nobody wants the situation that we have now. Nobody here is saying, let's take everyone in and give them a home. Most people recognise that it is a really difficult siutation that we are in at this point in time and no country should be left facing it alone.

From the Wadsworth LSE report...

Refugees
The Syrian refugee crisis is not related to the UK’s continued membership of the EU. The total immigration figures will not be much affected as the government will admit only around 20,000 adult refugees over the next five years. Refugees given the right to remain in Germany or other EU countries have no right to live or work in the UK. It takes a number of years (usually between five and eight) before refugees are even allowed to apply for citizenship. Most of those who are settled are unlikely to seek work in the UK. The UK is not in the Schengen passport-free travel agreement, so there are border checks preventing entry of refugees. Stopping illegal entry to the UK would not be any easier after Brexit.

People do realise that "ending Freedom of Movement" means they also lose that freedom ???

Yet again, a discussion about the sovereignty that Brexit will restore to the UK is summed up by Leavers as "immigrants". It happens just about every time and I'm long past the belief in this majority of Leavers voting from high-minded informed views about the ECJ.

I was about to write something similar but can't put it better than this.

Someone earlier said that disrespecting the vote was disrespecting the people who voted for it. Well, if people voted to make us all poorer because they had the erroneous belief that the EU was somehow the boss of us (even though it clearly isn't) I guess I do find it hard to respect that.

People do realise that "ending Freedom of Movement" means they also lose that freedom ???

Does it?!

I thought it just meant inwards.
Does this mean my kids won't be able to work/study elsewhere in the EU as easily?

Why did nobody draw attention to that before the referendum?
Do you have a link?

"no, it's because the EU discriminates against us having Commonwealth immigrants instead and that's just so unfair"

I know at least 2 leavers who thought they were voting to send Commonwealth immigrants (my words, not theirs) back.

And lest we forget, the UK has already shut down any suggestions of increased immigration from the Commonwealth anyway. To the protests of no leavers anywhere.

^^ this

Commonwealth immigrants was yet another bit of weasel wording. In terms of incoming immigration it was to make people think of white immigrants from places like Australia, New Zealand, and Canada.

Does this mean my kids won't be able to work/study elsewhere in the EU as easily?

Almost certainly.

As for a cite, maybe start here

Free Movement - EU nationals
Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice. EU citizens are entitled to:
look for a job in another EU country

work there without needing a work permit
reside there for that purpose
stay there even after employment has finished
enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages

(contd).

Once out of the EU, UK citizens will no longer be EU nationals, and therefore have none of those rights.

But everyone who voted Leaver knew that, so it's no biggie.

In terms of incoming immigration it was to make people think of white immigrants from places like Australia, New Zealand, and Canada.

Who have the devils own job getting to immigrate to the UK anyway - especially if they want to bring a family.

The kipper types are going to be really grumpy anyway, that's what they do. I hear them all the time in the M&S queue moaning about the weather and immigration. They'll have a lot more to moan about when a punnet of strawberries costs £75.

Please can we cancel brexit. I'm fed up of worrying.

Faith are you joking? In case not, of course FOM rights are lost reciprocally! I am greatly saddened that my children won't have the same rights to work and study in Europe as I did (and took advantage of). It is normal for us to want greater opportunities for our children, not fewer.

Faith are you joking?

I know one person IRL who didn't realise "ending FoM" meant giving it up themselves.

It's a little like Human Rights. Some people are very keen to remove them "from others" not realising it's a universal thing.