If we just cancelled Brexit....

[GraceGrape]

...do you think there would really be that much fuss?

I posted on the id card thread that it would be much less hassle if we could just cancel Brexit. It got me wishful thinking that this could actually be possible!

Even the most ardent leavers are starting to downplay its likelihood of success. Key figures like Gisela Stuart have admitted it's all been handled disastrously. The economy is starting to look a bit shit before we've even left. According to the pro- leave camp, we all apparently knew there would be a recession but it would still be "worth it" if you're independently wealthy like Garage, IDS or Bojo maybe.

Anyway, I think it would be typically British if we just harrumphed a bit and said "Well, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. The referendum was only advisory y'know."

As a nation, we don't tend to like big changes so I think a lot of people would be secretly relieved. There might be a bit of grumbling, and maybe Farage would leave the country in disgust as an added bonus. We could then sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened, as the Brits tend to do with some of the more unsavoury parts of our history anyway. It would also save us the humiliation of seeing David Davis try to do any more negotiating.

Old Tories may die, but just because somebody is a staunch Labour supporter at 20 doesn't mean they won't grow out of it.

Oh, the old ''they'll grow out of it" argument, which attempts to imply that the only mature, sensible thing to do is not believe in socialism. FWIW I'm well over the hill and have moved much further to the left after witnessing the injustice and inequality resulting from unbridled capitalism. There is no excuse for people needing food banks, no excuse for austerity literally killing people. We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world. The older, more educated and more widely-read I became, the most I started to see neoliberalism for what it was.
So you can shove your 'they'll grow out of' argument

Somehow the end bit of my cut & paste messed up...

The link in the middle of the text is where I got the text from; the bit that plonked itself at the end is from where the link put itself

That has twisted the calamitous Brexit referendum and enormous fuck up made of the country by the Tories so much its like satire.

Good laugh though

"The country is so fucked up that we need to go through brexit, which will really stuff us, to make us have to unfuck it up"

And to those who seem to think people's political views are set at 20 and never change, ITYF experience is a great (if hard) teacher. Many of us were well to the left... until we discovered a bit more about how the world really works, and began to rely on knowledge and understanding a bit more, and emotions and peer pressure a bit less. Old Tories may die, but just because somebody is a staunch Labour supporter at 20 doesn't mean they won't grow out of it

Wholly I agree with your post but I think that in addition to the effect of age, experience, family responsibilities and other life stage factors, a major influence on people moving away from the left is current events, and whether different political analyses seem to offer solutions to them.

I was a very late developer in moving from the (originally far) left further rightwards. For me, I think I had been increasingly uncomfortable with the left and Labour for some time and felt that they were increasingly neither really interested or listening to the working class in this country. The bro haha surrounding the referendum brought it all into sharp focus for me, with many on the left (not all) showing in no uncertain terms that they do not want working class people to have more say if it contradicts their aims, being prepared to use pretty nasty dehumanising tactics against those they disagree with and many showing scant regard for democracy. This really focused my mind on the fact that the left, certainly as it manifests in the UK today, has really lost its way. Similarly the response to Islamist terrorism, and the general inability to face up to difficult issues like the growth of predominantly Muslim grooming gangs up and down the country and Islamic attitudes to homosexuality (ostrich approach to all) from the left have confirmed my view that the left really doesn't have the answers in today's world. As all these issues start to have a more direct effect on people's lives, I think more people will start to question notions like identity politics and realise that these issues need to be dealt with, if we are going to avoid disaster, not just brushed under the political carpet.

" FWIW I'm well over the hill and have moved much further to the left after witnessing the injustice and inequality resulting from unbridled capitalism"

Same here, I'm much more left wing now than in my 20s. Not a socialist, but definitely more in favour of the welfare state, higher taxes, and greater state involvement in the markets / regulations.

"Islamic attitudes to homosexuality".

The right are really facing up to those by getting into bed with the DUP.

laughs more

Yes, as usual the far right are suddenly very concerned about gay rights, when they couldn't give two hoots about them before, and in fact where openly hostile to gay rights groups.

I accept people can move the other direction politically. I think the point is that neither people's political views, nor the context in which they form these views are fixed. So it is a bit irritating when some people talk as if we can just transpose the referendum result 20 years ahead, minus those who have died and assuming all the younger voters would vote the same as the younger voters at the time and declare it a win for remain It is just a nonsense notion.

Yes, as usual the far right are suddenly very concerned about gay rights, when they couldn't give two hoots about them before, and in fact where openly hostile to gay rights groups.

I'm not quite sure who you are referring to as the far right?

And call me old fashioned, but I tend to try to see people within groups as individuals rather than a homogenous mass. Some people on the right are pro-gay rights, some aren't. I really don't think there is the level of denial about the issue as for many on the left who just don't want to acknowledge the issues re homosexuality and Islam. Also you do know there are plenty of gay people on the right?

The bro haha surrounding the referendum brought it all into sharp focus for me, with many on the left (not all) showing in no uncertain terms that they do not want working class people to have more say if it contradicts their aims, being prepared to use pretty nasty dehumanising tactics against those they disagree with and many showing scant regard for democracy. This really focused my mind on the fact that the left, certainly as it manifests in the UK today, has really lost its way.

YY
The mask did not slip; rather, it was ripped off and their contempt for the working classes was laid bare.

I think homosexuality and the dUP is even more relevant personally now.

Peregrina

The £350m wasn't a promise. '...let’s fund our NHS instead' looks rather more like a suggestion or proposal to me, though I accept the figure itself is open to question. Bear in mind manifestos have been tested in court and have no legal standing.

And please point out to me where the European Union Referendum Act 2015...
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/schedule/1/enacted
...said it was only advisory, because I can't find it. The government's own (blatantly pro-EU) pamphlet said 'This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide',
tinyurl.com/jyouurq
...and as you admit, Cameron said it would be a "clear, legally binding and irreversible commitment". How can you keep on denying it? The Referendum was binding and the voters gave their verdict. Do you have a problem with democracy when it delivers a result you don't like?

You may be happy for your grandson to grow up in a province of an EU superstate ruled by a corrupt, anti-democratic, corporatist organisation run by foreigners where his vote counts for virtually nothing, but if I ever have any grandchildren I want them to grow up in a free country.

And of course, not everybody re-evaluates their politics as they get older but many do. I just have a dim view of those who seem to be rubbing their hands waiting for their opponents to die off, simply because they cannot defeat them in argument.

a province of an EU superstate ruled by a corrupt, anti-democratic, corporatist organisation run by foreigners

Full house!

Full house!

⬆️

That's my bingo card full too now!

That would negate the whole point of a democracy! Very dangerous ground indeed.

I voted remain but I respect the vote of that the majority of the country!

I would like my kids and grandchildren to grow in a country that treats its citizens with respect and drives unity rather than division. Allowing for growth in economy, investing in public services and infrastructure, education etc. Having an adequate support system in place for those that need it.

I will never accept Brexit as a democratic vote. Too many people were disenfranchised.

No, if the Referendum was binding the Act would have said so. All the legislation did was allow the Referendum to go ahead <a class="break-all" href="//#fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">#fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

I have no problems with foreigners. As for my grandson - his mother has dual citizenship and is therefore half 'foreign'.

...and as you admit, Cameron said it would be a "clear, legally binding and irreversible commitment". How can you keep on denying it?
As yes, the Cameron who was going to stay on as PM, and immediately invoke A50. Instead what did he do? Chucked the job in the next morning. He was then going to stay on in Parliament, but chucked that up by the October. Oh I don't deny that Cameron said all those things, but his actions showed he was not a man of his word.

The Referendum was binding and the voters gave their verdict. Do you have a problem with democracy when it delivers a result you don't like?

You think the Referendum was binding - others think that the commitment to the NHS was binding.Neither were. We have now had another GE where May has squandered a small but workable majority, with what was then a cowed opposition. That could be taken as the Public saying 'Whoa, we are not happy with your interpretation of Brexit'. Not the 80 - 100 plus majority that the Conservatives were crowing about only two weeks before the election, which they would have been expected to get if the will of the public was with them.

What happened in the campaign and since wasn't democracy. There was some democracy in there but there was also plenty that was anti-democratic.

However, we are completely stuck with this folly and we'll have to make the best of it we can.

About the only benefit I can see from the hard Brexits on offer is that once we are free of the EU superstate ruled by a corrupt, anti-democratic, corporatist organisation run by foreigners (thanks for this idiotic and yet splendidly ranty phrase), then logically the UK wouldn't be able to blame many of its ills on the EU. That's likely to happen, right?

What a pity that a significant number of our MEPs couldn't be bothered to do their jobs properly. Thinking particularly of Farage and Nuttall here.

cross

Ummh. We will be able to make all our own laws and policies and won't be subject to EU laws and policies. I think this is what people mean by soveriegnty and clearly the situation will be different after we exit the EU.

So which EU law and policies are you desperate to get rid of? It all sounds a bit "You're not the boss of me"
What policies are you actually expecting to change post Brexit?

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid: we'll be able to have straight bananas (or is it bendy ones? well it doesn't matter so long as they're not EU-mandated bananas) and we'll be able to have a bonfire of red tape. No more 'elf 'n safety holding back Great British business!