If we just cancelled Brexit....

[GraceGrape]

...do you think there would really be that much fuss?

I posted on the id card thread that it would be much less hassle if we could just cancel Brexit. It got me wishful thinking that this could actually be possible!

Even the most ardent leavers are starting to downplay its likelihood of success. Key figures like Gisela Stuart have admitted it's all been handled disastrously. The economy is starting to look a bit shit before we've even left. According to the pro- leave camp, we all apparently knew there would be a recession but it would still be "worth it" if you're independently wealthy like Garage, IDS or Bojo maybe.

Anyway, I think it would be typically British if we just harrumphed a bit and said "Well, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. The referendum was only advisory y'know."

As a nation, we don't tend to like big changes so I think a lot of people would be secretly relieved. There might be a bit of grumbling, and maybe Farage would leave the country in disgust as an added bonus. We could then sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened, as the Brits tend to do with some of the more unsavoury parts of our history anyway. It would also save us the humiliation of seeing David Davis try to do any more negotiating.

I get frustrated because if I'm honest Leaver arguements don't make much sense to me. Really sorry but to me Leavers do seem very illogical because not a single Leaver has put forward a decent logical arguement for leaving

So yes, I guess I do see the people who support Brexit in the face of this absurdity as being less rational (or certainly less questioning) and more tolerant of incompetency even if not incompetent themselves.

Some interesting replies to my rants. I suppose what this particular issue comes down to is "Can you accept that someone can think, read, question, debate etc just as much as you do, and be an equally intelligent, rational and caring person who wants the best for their community but come to a different political view to you."

I don't have any problem accepting that they can. I think people have different values and priorities. I think even people who have the same values and priorities can come to different conclusions as to how best to achieve these.

Plenty of people have put forward rational, logical arguments for leaving the EU, just as people have for voting Conservative. The fact that you might not agree with them doesn't make them not rational, logical arguments. I could just as well say "I can see no rational logical reason for staying in the EU". I can't, I think it would be madness, but I accept that this is because my values and priorities are different to theirs, and so there whilst there is no rational reason from my point of view, from another person's there is and they have come to this conclusion because of who they are, not because they are less rational or less questioning. That last one is an odd one actually, as I think it is probably more people who voted remain who are prepared to accept the narrative they have been given by the government, media etc and not question it than leave voters.

If your answer to why people have political difference is to say "it is because they are not as intelligent as us", which is kind of what some are saying, I think there is something very wrong with your viewpoint, and I also think you need to consider what this viewpoint really means for democracy, if you take it to its logical conclusion.

I think it is probably more people who voted remain who are prepared to accept the narrative they have been given by the government, media etc and not question it than leave voters.

IME remainers have tended to draw information from varying source, present an analysis of it and use flexible, clear, original language to discuss it. They also tend to engage with Leavers' points of view and present counter-arguments to them, again clearly and originally.

Leavers, by contrast, and again IME, on here and elsewhere, have tended to use and reuse the same phrases over and over again (such as 'taking back control', 'sovereignty', 'EU superstate', 'will of the people'), many of which seem to have originated in sections of the media and/or with politicians, and when asked to engage with Remainers' arguments have stuck to these and/or used insults and appeals to emotion.

Isn't a lot of the difference between Leavers and Remainers to do with willingness or otherwise to take risks/willingness to destroy what we have because anything must be better.
We Remainers despair at the foolishness of the risk taking; Leavers insist that it must be better despite the risk because what we have now is so awful.

my values and priorities are different

This is probably the nub of it. What are the values you draw on to support your belief that the UK should leave the European Union?

The risk taking itself isn't my real worry. It's the cheerleading a change involving massive risks and then effectively denying the risks exist. The degree to which the massive risks are downplayed is truly scary.

I completely disagree with you Sapphire and I would say that this

..and when asked to engage with Remainers' arguments have stuck to these and/or used insults and appeals to emotion.

characterises the approach of many remainers, certainly on MN. One of the common tactics, and there have been threads and threads of this, is that leavers present their reasons for voting leave, and remainers (some) then say that no leavers have presented their reasons for voting leave, when what they mean is that no leaver has presented a reason they agree with. This is not presenting a counter-argument. It is ignoring what people have said. Not quite the same thing.

It's all just different ways of saying the same thing. "I'm right, you are wrong, and the reason we disagree is that I am better (more educated, more logical, more questioning, less racist, more open-minded etc etc etc) than you, rather than the reason we disagree is because we have different values and priorities and different worldviews."

This is probably the nub of it. What are the values you draw on to support your belief that the UK should leave the European Union?

For me, a belief in: independence, autonomy & accountability for the country & it's elected politicians in WM.

rogue apostrophe in its

I think people should read JK Galbraith's The Great Crash 1929 - seriously.

One of Galbraith's most enduring lessons (clearly not taken on board by pro-Leave politicians and our beloved PM) was that you can't make something a success just by incanting over and over again that it will be so.

Isn't a lot of the difference between Leavers and Remainers to do with willingness or otherwise to take risks/willingness to destroy what we have because anything must be better.

We Remainers despair at the foolishness of the risk taking; Leavers insist that it must be better despite the risk because what we have now is so awful.

I think this shows that people look at the same situation from very different perspectives. This view sees the EU as preserving the status quo, so that staying in means we can keep what we have and continue as we are. I, and I imagine many leavers, see the EU as a threat to the status quo and want to leave, in part, so that we can preserve what we have. I think this idea that leave voters are all or even mainly malcontent left behinds just doesn't stand up to scrutiny of the voting data. Staying in the EU has risks, leaving it has risks. It is really not the case that one option is risk free.

One of the common tactics, and there have been threads and threads of this, is that leavers present their reasons for voting leave, and remainers (some) then say that no leavers have presented their reasons for voting leave

IME on here, leavers present their reasons for voting leave (often as I have described; personal/emotional/soundbites). Remainers respond to those reasons, often with evidence-based statements, and invite leavers to reply. Leavers repeat the same thing and then become abusive or hyperbolic.

Sapphire - I agree. Another common phrase is "we are better off out as the EU is on the brink of collapse ". But surely voting to leave the EU is trying to cause this? One thing that I have really noticed among leavers I know is a rejection of any common values with other Europeans, an insistence on being better off alone. Often there seems to be a insistence that the UK is being badly treated by other countries in the EU and an ignorance or rejection of the ideals of being in a union with our neighbours.

What are the values you draw on to support your belief that the UK should leave the European Union?

Mainly that democracy should be invested in the nation and that people should be able to hold their elected politicians accountable for their actions. In part this means having a political system which is of a size and complexity such that people are able to firstly, understand it, and secondly, influence it. Also, a belief that economic growth is not the primary source of human meaning and happiness and that our political systems should recognise this. (I'm not quite sure how this one ties up with my views on the EU, but it so often seems to be the case that arguments about EU membership are made in economic terms, without anyone questioning whether there are other ways of looking at issues which might actually be more meaningful, so i'l throw it in there).

Yes, whereas in fact the UK is (for now) one of the most influential EU players.

WM Sorry, what do the letters stand for here?

IME on here, leavers present their reasons for voting leave (often as I have described; personal/emotional/soundbites). Remainers respond to those reasons, often with evidence-based statements, and invite leavers to reply. Leavers repeat the same thing and then become abusive or hyperbolic.

This does not accord with my experience of reading and posting on these threads. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.

WM = Westminster

This does not accord with my experience of reading and posting on these threads.

OK, I'll have a go. How would you see leaving the EU as helpful in terms of solving the housing crisis for example, or improving education? FWIW I think one of the beneficial side effects of I have seen from Brexit is more discussion and focus on technical education.

HPFA If someone walked up to you in a rl situation and said to you "I think you are an arse, and not only that, but I think you are a lying arse, but by the way, would you care to discuss the following interesting topic with me" how would you respond?

I'm not going to answer questions put to me in the tone of "I'll have a go", thank you very much.

Perhaps this is why some people think leavers can't defend or explain their points of view. They can, they perhaps choose not to, if people address them in a condescending, insulting way. I don't know, try talking to us as if (and I realise this may be an outlandish suggestion) we are your equals, then we might get somewhere.

Actually it was meant to be friendly, and I put in the bit about technical education to show that I was willing to see the other side. People can draw their own conclusions on your response.

I read the first part of your response and was about to apologise and reply to your question, but I see from the second part that my first impression on the aim of your question was the correct one.

I think you're avoiding the original question, and that most people would consider my response to your post very restrained, frankly.

And if you really think that if someone doesn't want to reply to a particular question of yours because of the way you address them, you can deduce what they do or don't know or think or believe about a particular issue, then you have a very low threshold of evidence required for your assumptions.

I am not engaging with your question because you appeared to be addressing me in a condescending and baity manner, which your following posts have proved to be the case. I would have been quite happy to discuss the issue if raised in a reasonable fashion by someone.

Anyone see Tracey ullmans new show?

There's a sketch about a different opinions group to do with brexit. Very funny.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08w658t/tracey-breaks-the-news

It's 16 minutes and 10 seconds ish in.