If we just cancelled Brexit....

[GraceGrape]

...do you think there would really be that much fuss?

I posted on the id card thread that it would be much less hassle if we could just cancel Brexit. It got me wishful thinking that this could actually be possible!

Even the most ardent leavers are starting to downplay its likelihood of success. Key figures like Gisela Stuart have admitted it's all been handled disastrously. The economy is starting to look a bit shit before we've even left. According to the pro- leave camp, we all apparently knew there would be a recession but it would still be "worth it" if you're independently wealthy like Garage, IDS or Bojo maybe.

Anyway, I think it would be typically British if we just harrumphed a bit and said "Well, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. The referendum was only advisory y'know."

As a nation, we don't tend to like big changes so I think a lot of people would be secretly relieved. There might be a bit of grumbling, and maybe Farage would leave the country in disgust as an added bonus. We could then sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened, as the Brits tend to do with some of the more unsavoury parts of our history anyway. It would also save us the humiliation of seeing David Davis try to do any more negotiating.

Whilst it's always difficult to know how one's words will be read by someone else, I don't think any reasonable person would read my original question as being anything other than polite and accommodating.

I would have been quite happy to discuss the issue if raised in a reasonable fashion by someone.

Perhaps someone else would like to ask the question and see how they get on?

How do you think leaving the EU will solve the housing crisis?
How do you think it will lead to improvements in the NHS? (Setting aside Boris Johnson's Red bus and its promises.)

How do you think leaving the EU will solve the housing crisis?

I don't think of itself it will, but it might stop it getting worse. Much of the increase in population over the last few years has been from immigration. If immigration from the EU falls, then the increase in demand for housing will slow down, which will enable house building to start to catch up with demand, both private and social. I hope that reduced demand will lead to falls in house prices but I have no idea of this is realistic.

How do you think it will lead to improvements in the NHS? (Setting aside Boris Johnson's Red bus and its promises.)

I think there are numerous problems in the NHS some of which are nothing to do with the EU and Brexit (funding, organisation, culture, expectations, demographics etc) and I don't think leaving the EU will solve the problems in the NHS. But I do think reduced EU immigration should enable the NHS to better plan for changes in demand. I also think we need to start training more medical professionals. I have never been happy about what I see as poaching already highly trained doctors, for example, from poorer countries. I think the financial arrangements for nurse training needs to be looked at so that it is affordable for young people to train, and the issue of ensuring young people have the education and skills to get into NHS jobs at all levels, from the most basic up. I think the NHS would not be able to continue indefinitely under the current levels of immigration, and I see Brexit as just reducing one aspect of the huge problems it faces, not as a panacea. I am not happy about the funding of the NHS by the Tories for the last few years and hope pressure can be put on them (or future governments) to start funding it better.

Much of the increase in population over the last few years has been from immigration.

Many of the areas with a housing crisis e.g. Cornwall, have very little immigration, but the issue is people buying second homes and pricing locals out of the market. How will leaving the EU solve that?

Talking of improvements in the NHS - I am glad to see that you admit that most problems are not to do with the EU. But to go back to the EU - in what way do you expect leaving the EU to lead to staffing increases? How will it stem the flow of qualified staff? This is a matter of some interest to me because a recently qualified relative is already thinking of moving elsewhere - possibly Australia so that she has the resources to do the job she trained for.

Word Salad often does this on these threads. Plays the "I'm reasonable and have lots of arguments" card, but when actually asked a question they resort to "you're being mean so I'm not answering that". I've seen it several times.

One would almost think they didn't actually have any answers...

Many of the areas with a housing crisis e.g. Cornwall, have very little immigration, but the issue is people buying second homes and pricing locals out of the market. How will leaving the EU solve that?

It won't. There would need to be the political will to solve the issue of second home owners causing shortages and pricing people out. Personally I would like to see policies introduced to make owning 2nd homes and btl unadvantageous, but I don't know how popular that would be. Brexit certainly won't solve the issue.

Okay, sorry Peregrina I know you are genuinely interested in a conversation but I'm not going to stay on this thread to be maligned by pp who can't even be bothered to read what I've posted. It's so pathetic Sin. I'll leave you to it.

house building to start to catch up with demand, both private and social.

The reason house building hasn't "caught up" with anything is not because demand is outstripping supply (although it is).

It's because supply has been (artificially) throttled to keep the Great House Price Bubble going.

Near me, we recently visited an estate of new builds. 300 houses. The surrounding land was all virgin, and the rep pointed out that the new houses earmarked for it (3,000 in total) would be phased in over the next 10 years to ensure prices did not fall.

Notice, no immigrants were needed in the devising of that scenario.

Any "crisis" in housebuilding in the UK is entirely intentional. The way you really deal with a housebuilding crisis is - surprise, surprise - building houses. Like they in hundreds of thousands after WW1. Not piddling around with mortgage rates.

Wasn't it WW2 rather than WW1 which saw the house building? Despite the country being virtually bankrupt, MacMillan committed and achieved the building of a record number of council houses.

And just wanted to add, popping onto a thread to accuse someone of not answering questions after two posts where they have posted their answers to questions, well, just odd really.

Wasn't it WW2 rather than WW1 which saw the house building?

I was referring to the vast swathes of London, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool which all look the same and were built 1920s-1930s

Hundreds of thousands.

Growing up in such a house, our neighbour had lived there since it was built (1931). She moved in while the road (which had 420 houses in it) was being built, and remembered the school I went to (20 doors down !) being built.

While they were building that road, they were building the next, and the next, and the next - over 1,500 houses in one area (Harrow).

So when I hear all this bollocks about "initiatives" to build houses, I compare them to the example of where I grew up. And so far, all have been found wanting.

If there's a housing crisis, you build houses.

I suspect if the Titanic happened now, the loss of life would be because of a lack of investment opportunities, rather than lifeboats.

Q: How do you think leaving the EU will solve the housing crisis?

A: "control immigration"

Q: How do you think it will lead to improvements in the NHS? (Setting aside Boris Johnson's Red bus and its promises.)

A: "control immigration"

It is always, just always, "control immigration" followed by posts later on saying "how dare you say Leavers are motivated by controlling immigration?"

Hmmmm I wonder why

Salad - I'll credit you with actually trying to answer a couple of questions (while I was typing my post out), however, you have, correctly, pointed out that those issues are nothing to do with the EU, and so Brexit will in no way improve them (in fact it will make them considerably worse).

I was actually looking back at your previous attempt at a justification -
I am more concerned about us being able to determine our own future and respond flexibly to events in the world. - which is, basically, and possibly ironically, just "word salad". Just a meaningless soundbite that has absolutely no relevance to international trade or relations.

In my view there's nothing wrong with wanting the UK government to adopt measures to control immigration so long as the methods of control can be expressed in a rational way and there's an understanding of what it will mean in practice in terms of positive and negative consequences.

Whenever I've asked about these things the answers tends to be "an Australian points based system" (where "Australian" is code for "white") and "don't know, don't care".

I think this idea that leave voters are all or even mainly malcontent left behinds just doesn't stand up to scrutiny of the voting data.
I do agree with this. I found it very interesting that after the referendum we immediately started seeing the media coming out with the 'left behind' rhetoric. How keen they all were to spin this as 'left behind' versus 'metropolitan elites'. It certainly wasn't the 'left behind' that voted to leave in my neck of the woods. It was the people from the sailing club and the golf club.

It was the people from the sailing club and the golf club.

Same in my parents' village. Some of their neighbours have second homes in Spain and Italy but still voted for Brexit as they said they have enough money to pay for any health insurance or taxes they might incur.

I think it's fair to say that some communities e.g. in the north and west, did belong to the 'left behind' although it wasn't the EU which caused them to be left behind.

In my own South East community those Leavers that I have met were definitely the better off (and elderly) Golf Club types. One of whom could not understand why her son's EU partner was now upset with her, and why the family were contemplating relocating, meaning that she would see much less of her grandchildren.

It certainly wasn't the 'left behind' that voted to leave in my neck of the woods. It was the people from the sailing club and the golf club.

My recollection of the analysis was that the result had been swung by the left behind who don't usually vote but on this occasion had chosen to do so. The metropolitan elites and the UKIP/golf club constituencies had voted as expected.

This definitely reflects where I'm from. Compared to a normal General Election turnout was up 10-15% in the Referendum and much of that went to Leave.

twofingers - So true IME - Lots of very well to do people I know voted leave. I don't mean this as an insult, but I think it's best described as an attitude - a 'Little England' attitude. They want to see UK standing on their own, whereas I see us as stronger as part of an economic and political union with our closest allies.

I see us as immeasurably stronger as part of the EU - and that's not to say that I think the EU is perfect - it most certainly isn't - just that the benefits of membership (particularly on the amazing deal we had - no Euro, no Schengen) far outweigh the disadvantages.

I'll credit you with actually trying to answer a couple of questions (while I was typing my post out), however, you have, correctly, pointed out that those issues are nothing to do with the EU, and so Brexit will in no way improve them (in fact it will make them considerably worse)

Sin You really need to work on your typing speed then. 22 minutes for a short post. Blimey.

I was actually looking back at your previous attempt at a justification

It was not a justification. I have no need to justify my voting decision to you or anyone else.

I am more concerned about us being able to determine our own future and respond flexibly to events in the world. - which is, basically, and possibly ironically, just "word salad". Just a meaningless soundbite that has absolutely no relevance to international trade or relations

No relevance to trade, no. Completely relevant to international relations - being able to take our own decisions without having to agree with 27 other countries first. But you don't agree, so it's just a soundbite This is an example of what I was talking about earlier. You might think the world is stable and everything will carry on pretty much as it is. I don't and I want the UK to be able to take its own decisions and to choose what is best for is, not for the EU. If that seems trivial and meaningless to you, well, perhaps we need to wait and see how the next 50 years pans out before we will know if it is or not.

What has the EU imposed on the UK that it hasn't agreed to? I'm struggling to think of examples. I think we were in the fortunate position to be able to pretty much pick and choose which bits we wanted.

Bendy bananas? Straight bananas?

Indeed, nothing that I can think of.

I asked my Leave voting mother the same question, and she came up with allowing prisoners the vote. But prisoners are not allowed to vote, so it hasn't been enforced on us.