If we just cancelled Brexit....

[GraceGrape]

...do you think there would really be that much fuss?

I posted on the id card thread that it would be much less hassle if we could just cancel Brexit. It got me wishful thinking that this could actually be possible!

Even the most ardent leavers are starting to downplay its likelihood of success. Key figures like Gisela Stuart have admitted it's all been handled disastrously. The economy is starting to look a bit shit before we've even left. According to the pro- leave camp, we all apparently knew there would be a recession but it would still be "worth it" if you're independently wealthy like Garage, IDS or Bojo maybe.

Anyway, I think it would be typically British if we just harrumphed a bit and said "Well, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. The referendum was only advisory y'know."

As a nation, we don't tend to like big changes so I think a lot of people would be secretly relieved. There might be a bit of grumbling, and maybe Farage would leave the country in disgust as an added bonus. We could then sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened, as the Brits tend to do with some of the more unsavoury parts of our history anyway. It would also save us the humiliation of seeing David Davis try to do any more negotiating.

I don't think there was a huge number of people retiring to Spain pre-common market

I knew quite a few. That is why I was surprised when there is a consensus saying not many went pre common market.

Particularly if they include a requirement to speak Spanish to an acceptable standard

Pity we didn't have this before Brexit for people working in Britain. I know people who voted out because they got fed up with not being able to make themselves understood in shops.

I know people who voted out because they got fed up with not being able to make themselves understood in shops.

Strange, I thought the vote was because people thought it was unfair that non-EU immigrants were at a disadvantage compared to EU ones. Alternatively, that the vote had nothing to do with immigration at all.

This thread has taught me that Oliversmumsarmy provides samples of rather atypical people.

You may have known a few, Ollie, but it's a statistical fact that numbers increased vastly in the late 90s.

*oliversmummy

You may have known a few, Ollie, but it's a statistical fact that numbers increased vastly in the late 90s.

I think facts are an irritation when feelings are involved. Experts, remember ?

Silly me! Facts are for pussies, aren't they- thank you for that one Dominic Cummings

If people thought my previous post was "extraordinary" perhaps they should read to the end of this thread.

twitter.com/RemainingKind/status/880665675009806339

Strange, I thought the vote was because people thought it was unfair that non-EU immigrants were at a disadvantage compared to EU ones. Alternatively, that the vote had nothing to do with immigration at all.

You do make me laugh, some of you remainers on here. Banging on about "facts" and how leavers just hate them (of course, we do ), and then someone comes out with a comment like the above and not a word of dissent from the same.

You can't have it both ways. Either you are interested in the truth and facts, or you are not. You can't just be interested in them when they suit your argument or allow you to score what you see as a political point, and play fast and loose with them when they don't. Well, you can, but people can see through it.

*Strange, I thought the vote was because people thought it was unfair that non-EU immigrants were at a disadvantage compared to EU ones. Alternatively, that the vote had nothing to do with immigration at all.

You do make me laugh, some of you remainers on here. Banging on about "facts" and how leavers just hate them (of course, we do hmm), and then someone comes out with a comment like the above and not a word of dissent from the same.

You can't have it both ways. Either you are interested in the truth and facts, or you are not. You can't just be interested in them when they suit your argument or allow you to score what you see as a political point, and play fast and loose with them when they don't. Well, you can, but people can see through it.*

Does this make any sense at all?

Cross I treated it as irony but I have seen both those arguments trotted out repeatedly on these threads, Fact.

It does indeed appear to be "word salad".

It seems to be a denial that some people said they voted Brexit because they "thought it was unfair that non-EU immigrants were at a disadvantage compared to EU ones" and also a denial that some people said "the vote had nothing to do with immigration at all". As whatwouldrondo said, these are perfectly normal recollections of what was said both before and after the vote.

I've seen them too ron but I've seen plenty of other reasons too. Irony is fine, but when it slips back into the old "oh aren't leave voters such a lot of ignorant xenophobes who don't believe in facts", it gets a bit unpleasant and tiresome.

Anyway, I should have kept off the EU threads for a few days. Every time we take a substantial step nearer to leaving the EU, we get a few days of enhanced leaver-bashing so I should have expected it. I'm not sure what it supposed to achieve, presumably it fulfils some function for those who indulge but personally, I think it is quite destructive.

And before anyone quotes Gove's experts comment yet again, do me and yourself a favour and look up what he actually said and about whom.

You can't have it both ways

Except on these threads, they can & they do.

nauticant you are using the word "some", the original post had no mention of "some" and was clearly referring to all

Cross, it was Dominic Cummings, campaign director of Vote Leave, who said "Facts don't work" and "accuracy is for snake oil pussies" - which resulted in the Leave Campaign being a pack of lies. I don't care what anyone on here says, I know neighbours of mine who voted leave did so because they believed some of those lies.

And as we know, Remain told a lot of lies too. And presented things as "facts" which were opinions or predictions. And some people voted remain because of these. So endlessly banging on about leave voters not being interested in facts is just nonsense, and stereotyping offensive nonsense too. And I know people who voted Remain because they didn't want BJ to be prime minister. But I'm not going to use that to slur all remain voters.

Anyway we've all been through this a million times. I can't get my head around a political worldview that shores itself up by painting anyone who disagrees as a less rational, competent and valuable human being, but that seems to be what many people have. Odd, but there you go.

Every time we take a substantial step nearer to leaving the EU, we get a few days of enhanced leaver-bashing so I should have expected it

Sorry it feels like Leaver bashing.

Whenever I speak to Leavers it's to try and understand their point of view and why they support Brexit.

I get frustrated because if I'm honest Leaver arguements don't make much sense to me. Really sorry but to me Leavers do seem very illogical because not a single Leaver has put forward a decent logical arguement for leaving.

They were not on a par, CrossWord. Economic predictions by, say, Mark Carney (someone who knows what he's talking about, and which actually proved correct - the value of the pound did fall off a cliff on Jun24th) are not the same as the "£350M for the NHS" lie, or the promise that the govt would match all EU spending in deprived areas.

So far, Project Fear is becoming Project Reality. I still don't know how they were allowed to tell such lies.

BJ could still become PM btw - and I don't believe that was ever written on the side of a bus by the Remain campaign....

I can't get my head around a political worldview that shores itself up by painting anyone who disagrees as a less rational, competent and valuable human being, but that seems to be what many people have.

Do you think this 'worldview' might be a result of Brexit itself being seen as irrational and led by a bunch of incompetents? A year after the referendum, I have seen no rational argument to support Brexit, but lots of 'suck it up, losers' type comments and people like the woman on last night's Question Time who said we 'used to be best at almost everything' before we 'went in with others.' That was it. That was her 'argument'. As usual with these statements, which have been trotted out endlessly for a year, she went unchallenged. And then we have the incompetence of May, Johnson, David, Fox et al. So yes, I guess I do see the people who support Brexit in the face of this absurdity as being less rational (or certainly less questioning) and more tolerant of incompetency even if not incompetent themselves.

Anyway we've all been through this a million times. I can't get my head around a political worldview that shores itself up by painting anyone who disagrees as a less rational, competent and valuable human being, but that seems to be what many people have. Odd, but there you go.

Actually I don't have a problem with people whose best judgement told them they should vote Leave. Nor do I have a problem with people like Richard North who think we should leave but fully acknowledge the difficulties.

I have a problem with people who treat the whole idea of changing minds in the light of evidence as being wrong. If the things you hoped for from Brexit seem unlikely to be realised then it is perfectly rational to re-consider, it is not a "betrayal" or a denial of democracy. We should be alarmed when prominent leavers like David Davis and John Redwood proffer "solutions" to Brexit dilemnas which are dishonest, counterproductive, and in some cases actually illegal.

If people find this insulting then there's not much I can say really, is there?

Btw, I don't think Leave voters are stupid, I don't think my neighbours are stupid - I like them. Sometimes we all believe what we want to hear, esp if it fits with our world view. My mother voted Leave - I know she's not stupid - although she might have taken leave of her senses during June last year - she fits the profile of a remainer in every way but age.

I do wonder why Leave Campaign was allowed to tell such lies though - adverts making such serious false promises would not be allowed.

There must be leave voters who looked at the facts and statistics , considered both alternatives and potential consequences objectively , weighed all that with their values and priorities and voted accordingly. I've yet to meet any but they must be out there somewhere.

Pity that the GE was called after Article 50 was invoked.

Anyone agree?

Might be a different landscape now if the decision to invoke was predicated on the GE result. But then again I think the Tories would have been massacred. So it's all for party not for country.

What an utter and total mess. I reckon only a relatively small cohort are in favour of all the rules surrounding EU immigrants and the UK ex pats in EU, the economy is not thriving and I am being kind there, the cost of all the changes, the upheaval to people's lives. The list goes on.

I am so irritated by the battering ram attitude of TM and the Tories. Time to stand back and regroup.

There must be leave voters who looked at the facts and statistics , considered both alternatives and potential consequences objectively , weighed all that with their values and priorities and voted accordingly. I've yet to meet any but they must be out there somewhere.

One of the leading "intellectual Leavers" is Daniel Hannan. During the campaign he was talking about a Norway-type solution and saying that we wouldn't be leaving the Single Market and now he's all "no, I didn't mean that at all, I was really talking about access to the Single Market".

One thing I struggle with is the continual rewriting of the Brexit campaign that's been going on since about 5am on 24 June 2016.