Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: The bookends to a year of political chaos. Just how far have we come?

992 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/06/2017 18:50

The 15th June 2016.

The Thames was filled with a flotilla of boats in a publicity stunt for the Leave campaign to draw attention to fisheries. Nigel Farage and Kate Hoey in their heads thought they were Leonardo and Kate, but the moment was rather more titanic in nature and could not have been more Alan Partridge if they had tried. Coming up behind was Bob Gedolf in a shameful and cringeworthy display of swearing and abuse that really didn’t help the Remain camp in anyway. Largely unnoticed was a small boat with a family following it all unfold…

The next day things went from fiasco to horror.

Farage unveiled the Dog Whistle Poster and Jo Cox was murdered. And the UK seemed set on its course for 7 days later when the world was turned upside down by the referendum itself.

14th June 2017.

Fast forward 365 days later and another tragedy unfolded. This time of a very different nature but with no less political significance.
Grenfell.

A moment of national shame. A symbol of so many things that had come to pass in the previous twelve months.

The election just the previous week had changed the direction of travel we seemed to be headed and left the Prime Minister exposed and looking wildly out of touch. The Maybot was given one more chance.

And the Maybot seems to be failing the test of her party who had the grace to grant her a second chance.

The Queen dressed in the same shade of blue, May delivered her ‘victory speech’ in, ignored the security threat and visited the ranks of the poor and the forgotten. A deliberate message to May not to forget who she serves? A Queen who feels aggrieved and angry by May’s behaviour? Who knows.

As for Brexit. The government looks lost. Adrift. The ‘Fight of the Summer’ over the EU’s plan for talks sounds out the window despite the denials from the Brexit Department. Hard Brexit is still on the cards. Apparently. But what does anyone believe now? May’s and the Brexiteers domination of the agenda is shattered, its power starting to be questioned.

What next?

This evening the anger is building.

Who knows, what will happen. Some of it might be predictable, but the future is far from certain and we have definitely entered a new era. We just don’t know who will lead it, or what its ambition or what the end goal now is.

What we do know, more acutely than ever is that we are all human and the wise words of Jo Cox about having ‘More in Common’ ring though ever more strongly.

Once again we feel ‘on the brink’.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
BigChocFrenzy · 18/06/2017 23:13

Guardian opinion is: Theresa May: safe for now, but credibility damaged beyond repair

"There are stories of an imminent leadership challenge, but senior Tories have dismissed the notion, and there is no obvious successor"

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/18/theresa-may-safe-for-now-but-credibility-damaged-beyond-repair

"Theresa May will face parliament this week reasonably confident that speculation about an imminent leadership challenge remains unfounded,
but knowing that her long-term credibility with her party has been damaged beyond repair.

.... few have seen their stock plummet so quickly as May’s did in the period between Friday 9 June, when she realised her early election gamble had backfired,
and the following Friday when crowds, angry at her supposedly unsympathetic response to the Grenfell Tower tragedy,
yelled “coward” at her as she was driven away from a meeting with victims encircled by police for her protection"

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2017 23:17

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tim-farron-resigns-liberal-democrat-gay-rights-lgbt-chris-cooke-tension-lord-paddick-a7796321.html
False allegations made against Tim Farron by Lib Dem activist as tensions bubbled within party over gay rights
Chris Cooke is said to have made unfounded claims about Mr Farron's personal conduct after being suspended from the party

LDs decide that its been far too long since they had a big bust up and fighting within the party and since Labour are doing a good job of being united and the Tories are doing their best not to let the cracks show (apart from everyone thinking May is shit) over in Team Blue, that it was their turn to have a big row.

OP posts:
ArleneFostersNegotiatingFace · 18/06/2017 23:20

Yes citroen, you hear so much about voter apathy and people not being bothered to do anything and here you had a group of residents doing absolutely everything they could to get the people in charge to improve their situation and essentially fulfil their legal requirements so they could live in a safe environment and being blocked and let down at every turn. Now this has happened and they will have to continue fighting. I bloody well hope they get answers this time.

citroenpresse · 18/06/2017 23:23

Loathsom on why no Q speech next year "it's all a bit technical because there's a lot of legislation to be got through." Is this a last chance attempt to save Brexit and chuck a crap person in a strategic job? Her abrupt reasoning for resigning in leadership challenge not really explained tonight other than the implications she simply couldn't cope. Were the dodgy cv things mentioned?

everthibkyouvebeenconned · 18/06/2017 23:26

Red tbf in my small flirtation with the LDs I really struggled with Farrons 'it's ok but' views on being gay and abortion.

Yes it's not right no one asked May or other Tories but it didn't feel Liberal to me

prettybird · 18/06/2017 23:41

Still struggling to catch up (only up to yesterday morning Blush) but thought I should post my rambling thoughts to date, before they get even more out of date Blush

Re Tartan Tories: even Jim Callaghan acknowledges that the real architects of the downfall of his government - and the ushering in of Thatcherism - were not the SNP 11 who withdrew their propping up support of the Labour Government but the 30 odd Labour MPs (only 4 of whom represented Scottish constituencies Hmm) who, along with the Conservatives, voted through an amendment requiring a threshold of those registered to vote (not just a threshold of those who voted) in support of the devolution vote. These included Dennis Skinner and Tam Dalyell. Callaghan even considered trying to keep the Scotland Act on the statute book but not implement it yet - which might have assuaged the SNP - but realised he couldn't get it past his own rebel backbenchers

So while it is useful to "blame" the SNP for bringing in 18 years of Conservative rule, it is a convenient distraction from the fact that it was Labour rebels who initiated. So just who were the Tartan Tories? Hmm

Re LGBT MPs - you can add my MP Stewart McDonald to that list. It's one of the topics he's campaigned on at WM. And contrary to the perception promulgated by Labour and Tory alike, the SNP don't spend their time there chuntering on about independence. He did a research in Hansard after yet another statement from Scottish Labour about this and this was his result from 2 years at Westminster. He's been particularly active about Job Centre closures - 2 out of 3 in the constituency.

Stewart McDonald MP @StewartMcDonald

Quick search of Hansard
Scotland - 43
Jobcentre closures - 15
Human rights - 12
Brexit - 9
Emissions - 9
LGBT issues - 9
Independence - 5
9:13 pm · 28 May 2017

Alison Thewliss, my neighbouring MP has been campaigning vociferously against the rape clause/family cap (as well as the Job Centre closures). They have been doing their "day jobs" - representing their constituents and campaigning for wider non devolved UK issues - like welfare and Brexit Wink

And don't get me started on ruthless smiley Ruth Angry She defended the rape clause and then had the temerity to suggest that it shouldn't matter to Scots because "the Scottish Government can mitigate it" Hmm. Quite apart from the logistics of it (as it is part of Universal Credit which is not devolved), if it's wrong in Scotland, it's wrong in the UK yes, I do mean to shout - and as WM MPs, the SNP were quite right to be pointing this out. So I will state again that Ruth has proven herself not just to be immoral (in defending the indefensible) but also hypocritical, in adopting a "Well it doesn't affect the Scots so who cares?" approach.Confused

Following on from the Grenfell disaster and May's inadequate response, Sqoosh's quote from the Times yesterday that May "is a good and moral person who wants the best for the country" was unintentionally ironically juxtaposed with the New Statement article where it points out how the poor have been "othered" and that austerity/trickle down economics can only work if they work at all Hmm by discounting the poor and vulnerable as you make the rich richer. I personally think that May's version of "best for the country" is "best for the Conservative Party" and she doesn't have a clue what the country needs. The Conservative Party has moved so far from "One Nation Conservatives" as to be unrecognisable. Ken Clarke is probably the last one left - although there are a couple (like Sarah Wollaston) who are maybe coming back to that viewpoint I have a suspicion she'll end up crossing the floor

From Painintheear's @guitarmoog thread "Negotiation is not, contrary to popular belief, about barging in, thumping the table and demanding you get everything you want." ....

....this brought back immediate memories of when I joined the NHS in the early 90s at the time of the Purchaser/Provider split on a special accelerated promotion pilot scheme bringing in people from industry and exposing them/us to the best in Health Service management thinking. We (all previously successful managers from the private sector who believed in the NHS interestingly even though this was in Yorkshire/Trent, we were all Scottish or Scottish Uni educated ) were horrified that both the DoH and the Trusts/Health Authorities thought that negotiation consisted of going into a room and thumping a table and saying "this is what we want and we must have it". We even wrote an article for the NHS Journal asking the question "Are Partnership and Competition Incompatible?" (Answer: No - but many in the NHS and DoH thought they were. You need to work together to find mutually compatible outcomes - especially when ultimately, you both supposedly care for the health of people. In the current scenario, read economy for health)

In 1997 dh expressed concern - despite having wanted Labour to win - on the night when Brian Wilson in his victory speech said something along the lines of "we're the masters now". As a result, he said from the start that Labour would (and did) let power go to their head. I thought he was catastrophising exaggerating at the time - but there again, that was before WMD, the dodgy dossier and the Iraq War BlushSad

Dh also predicted - so Bore and Hester you are not alone - on 24 June that Brexit would never actually happen. He went to a Business Breakfast a few weeks later where all the attendees felt the same (including the guy who'd presented on the benefits of Brexit Shock). Admittedly, we're in Scotland so have a different perhaps wishful thinking perspective.

That's probably enough for now Blush

Now I'll get back to trying to catch up Grin

Valentine2 · 18/06/2017 23:48

I can imagine why they are asking for proof from affected. It is another way of saying "sorry we haven't got much of a record of all of you anywhere".

Cailleach1 · 19/06/2017 00:05

"Isn't the right to Irish citizenship already based on 'the island of Ireland''? NI citizens can already identify 'solely' as Irish unless Ireland plans to change its citizenship rules. Have I misunderstood?"

Citroen , there is a difference. Ireland grants the same right to Irish nationality whichever side of the border you were born in. This, however, had no effect on how the UK gov't viewed someone born in NI. They may have been extended nationality by Ireland, but were viewed as British citizens by being born in part of the UK.

The GFA changed this and granted UK recognition to someone born in NI to identify solely as Irish if 'Northern Irish'. Even though born in part of the UK, they don't have to identify as British at all. It is not a case that they are born in the UK and are British people who have applied for an Irish passport as well. They aren't simply viewed as Irish 'du sang' and British 'du sol'.

The GFA also provided for future sovereignty to be changed if a majority voted for it in Ireland and NI.

Sorry if I am not outlining it clearly. There is a difference, though.

ArleneFostersNegotiatingFace · 19/06/2017 00:14

If we don't Brexit, I want to it be done discreetly and so stealthily done that most don't care/mind/have better things to worry about, but at the same time I would also like a big announcement so I can crack open some champagne and do a dance. And have a feast of food and drink from EU27.

I can but dream...

Cailleach1 · 19/06/2017 00:18

"Northern Ireland is part of the UK. However, under the Belfast Agreement(external link opens in a new window / tab), also known as the Good Friday Agreement, people born in Northern Ireland can choose to be British citizens, Irish citizens or both. If they choose to be both British and Irish citizens, this means they have a dual citizenship."

www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/about-northern-ireland

If born in any other part of the UK (well Britain really), you may have a right to an Irish nationality through ancestry. It would have to be dual, though, as someone born in Sterling, Swansea or Swanage would be British as well by dint of being born in Britain. Not so someone born in Strangford. They can just be Irish.

Peregrina · 19/06/2017 00:34

Not so someone born in Strangford. They can just be Irish.
Have Davis and May woken up to that, do you think? May has spent a year showing woefully little interest in N Ireland, until last Friday, when suddenly, she needs some NI MPs more than ever. I know she and Cameron were propped up by them before, but she had her majority without them.

Cailleach1 · 19/06/2017 01:19

That begs the question of a cut off entry point for EU citizens and rights afforded to them . New EU citizens (Irish citizens) will be born in non-EU NI every single day after the cut off point.

Can the UK give a different classification of Irish citizenship (and therefore EU citizenship) to those born in NI, before and after Brexit? Would that be contrary to the GFA?

RhythmAndStealth · 19/06/2017 01:22

There could be a sudden increase in very pregnant women "on holiday" in NI just as their waters break...

Valentine2 · 19/06/2017 02:03

Words fail me.

Westministenders: The bookends to a year of political chaos. Just how far have we come?
Cailleach1 · 19/06/2017 03:05

That won't work any more Rhythm. The Irish gov't changed the criteria for citizenship. Citizenship isn't given to everyone who is residing in NI anymore than anyone that just arrives in Ireland. More stringent connections than anyone born on the Island were also introduced quite a few years ago. It had been that simple beforehand.

RhythmAndStealth · 19/06/2017 03:11

Oh well. Back on the pill then. Damn.

mathanxiety · 19/06/2017 04:14

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the-future-of-uk-is-now-the-plaything-of-one-woman-s-determination-to-cling-to-power-1-5066826
'The future of UK is now the plaything of one woman’s determination to cling to power'
18 June 2017

Alastair Campbell

After she became Prime Minister, and did a tour of the devolved Administrations, she met First Minister Arlene Foster, DUP leader, and Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein, who would be stunned by the latest turn in events were he still alive to witness them. When I saw McGuinness some weeks later he told me that she had “no clue” about the two issues they had been in the main discussing – Brexit and Northern Ireland. He felt she had no real plan for one, no real understanding of the other, and gave no explanation of how the vital issue of the border between a Northern Ireland out of the EU and a Republic of Ireland still in the EU was to be resolved. We have always been in or out together. This is a massive change and the consequences have not been thought through.

Brexit and the border is the other situation which makes May’s deal so irresponsible. The border is one of the three issues the EU have put out front as the ones that must be resolved first. I have still not heard a credible explanation of how the ‘frictionless border’ preferred by the pro-Brexit DUP can be put in place if the government promises on immigration or the implementation of any future trade deal with the EU are to be properly policed. It is yet one more problem that they seem to think will be solved simply because they say it will. Denial of realities. Reliance on hope. Fingers crossed. La la land.

Also, though Northern Ireland voted Remain by 57-43 in the referendum, she is now in hock to the only major Northern Irish party that backed Leave. So this debate too will he skewed one way because of the reliance on one party. It gives them grossly disproportionate power over an issue that affects the whole of the UK and the whole of Ireland, the consequences for whom have been scandalously ignored by our government.

I have seen the DUP up close many times when working as part of Tony Blair’s team in the peace process. They are tough minded. They drive a very hard bargain. They will have noticed, as have the EU leaders by the way, how May, far from being strong and stable, goes all weak and wobbly under pressure. They will apply that pressure for all it is worth. And they start with the very big advantage of knowing that she is desperate, just desperate, to cling to power. They are in a very strong position. She, on this as on so much else, is not. She is weakened, diminished, done.

I am very inclined to believe that May had (has?) neither a Brexit plan nor any clue about the NI situation.

Clearly she is not at all troubled by the status of future citizens of NI and the fact that they should according to the GFA have a right to be Irish.

RhythmAndStealth · 19/06/2017 06:31

When I saw your post earlier Valentine2, I thought the picture was of some kind of hoax/fake news item. That you were saying "words fail me" because you were appalled at the bad taste of it.

This is just incomprehensible.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 19/06/2017 06:34

Fuck, another incident. This is relentless

frumpety · 19/06/2017 06:59

It was reported on the BBC about half an hour ago that a man had become unwell after leaving prayers and that people were attempting CPR when they were targeted by the van . I cannot even to begin to fathom the thinking behind purposefully attacking a group of people trying to save someone's life . Those poor people Sad

HashiAsLarry · 19/06/2017 07:01

Oh no, Finsbury Park Sad

Someone told me last year the country was broken. I told him he was nuts. Its definitely broken now.

everthibkyouvebeenconned · 19/06/2017 07:05

RW terrorists. Trying to start a race war.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2017 07:23

This last GE, the parties or the right totalled only 45.1%
compared to 53% last GE

Under PR, the 2017 left / centre could have formed a coalition, especially since UKIP would have been under the % for seat limit under most systems, whereas the % for the 3 smaller UK countries would give seats.

Right total = 45.1%
CON 42.4%
UKIP 1.8%
DUP 0.9%

Left / Centre Total =53.2% / 52.5% disregarding Sinn Fein 0.7%
LAB 40.0%
LDEM 7.4%
SNP 3.0%
GRN 1.6%
PC 0.5%

HesterThrale · 19/06/2017 07:23

I used to say that we were fortunate to have been born in a 'good country'. That largely worked. 'There but for the grace of God'... etc.

I'm beginning to wonder. The Tories are reducing the UK to a shameful mess.

Last night at the start of that Treeza and Boris show, IDS was saying there was a huge split in the Tory party over the EU, and it had to be resolved once and for all. I was struck that he made NO mention of whether it'd be good or bad for the country, just that the party needed sorting. We all know this of course, but to see a senior Tory admit this shocked me. Where is their sense of service?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2017 07:27

news.sky.com/story/live-driver-deliberately-headed-into-crowd-10919848

One man dead after van hit worshippers leaving north London mosquee*
• Eight people taken to hospital after Finsbury Park collision
• Prime Minister says police are dealing with potential terror attack
• Van driver allegedly said "I did my bit"
• Man, 48, arrested after being held at scene

Again, community looks like pulling together:
Rabbi Herschel Gluck, president of Shomrim, a Jewish neighbourhood watch group, is at the police cordon to show solidarity with the community.
He told the Press Association: "We have very good community relations here."

Van driver said "I did my bit"
Toufik Kacimi, the CEO of the Muslim Welfare House, has told Sky News the van driver told the mosque's imam "I did my bit".
He said: "People grabbed him outside and started hitting him. Our imam Mohammed Mahmoud went there and saved him, saved his life basically."
He added: "The guy by that time was saying 'I did my bit'."