How can anyone defend TM right now?

[Bearbehind]

And I ask that as a life long Tory voter

• She repeatedly, categorically ruled out having a GE now, then completely u-turned
• she is too spineless to participate in tv debates
• she won't deny triple lock pensions will be scrapped
• she won't deny the freeze on tax hikes will be scrapped
• her 'red line' is immigration, which if you ask most Leavers, wasn't their 'red line'
• she is hell bent on screwing the economy to prove a point
• her Brexit team cannot answer even the most basic questions
• she showed her petticoat to Trump and even he has said the EU will come first
• she is operating under some kind of delusion that EU agencies can remain in what will be a non EU country.

Really, who in their right mind would vote for her?

Life long labour voters who are considering now voting Tory blow my mind.

Seriously, what was ever so bad about the EU that makes it worth all this?

Understand not think newest and!

Don't worry the Tories aren't prepared More sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la, la, la,". If they are so prepared how come they keep getting caught on the hop by each new development from the EU, and then spin some more nonsense, for instance Davis saying that the agencies could stay here, to cover up? For sure the EU have never been remotely ambiguous about their stance including that the agencies would go. How come they are edging out any official who tries to present them with advice on the reality? How come they have still not filled their departments because civil servants (and indeed advisers from the Consultancy companies ) are not prepared to work in an environment that requires them to see Brexit only in terms of opportunities, not risks (the real reason Davis is not planning for them). From the point of view of the professional community in London the government's approach to Brexit is well known to be a total shitshow of management and planning that is making us look like total incompetents on the world stage, something that those of us who deal with clients overseas inside and outside the EU have to overcome on a daily basis.......

Larry In the past I had some respect for your arguments, you had clearly thought things through, but this is just sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la, la, la"

Most of the thoughtful leavers, of which there were a few, seem to have gone very quiet of late.

I find generally that once you try to take people down the funnel of debating specifics in terms of trade, business, planning, markets, competitive advantage, the bread and butter of how UK PLC earns its living, it invariably gets ignored / kills the thread

JanetBrown

Don't worry that the Tories aren't prepared. Obviously we will negotiate the best Brexit we can even those of us who are remainers - it is in no one's interests to mess it up and then say told you so.

Apologies but I am a bit confused by your post. Are you saying: don't worry, the Tories have a plan OR don't worry, civil servants will be able to sort this out? I'd really like not to worry so am desperately looking for silver linings .

Bear, and lala, my general view is the Government is doing exactly what I do in every negotiation I have almost every day of my life. You negotiate. If you do X I give you Y. You don't stand there with a target on your chest saying here are the points we will concede now take them away from us. It all makes perfect sense to me in the mess of Brexit. However I don't think the Tories should ever have put Brexit to the vote -that as the big mistake that has led to this mess.

If I were non British and were employed at the EMA in Canary Wharf I would currently not be happy. I'd be looking for other jobs and if I had a British husband and children be applying right away for all the processes which lead to citzenship or if I had famly back home and planned to move back anyway in a year or two I'd be looking for jobs there if a good one came up. I would not hang around in the hope either the agency stays in the UK or that if it moves I would get a job in its new home.

janet why would anyone go into a negotiation using something which does not 'belong' to them and which they have no right to in the future, as a bargaining chip

So nothing to counter the overwhelming evidence that the government don't have a clue. Back to worrying then .

Janet You are aware that this is not a game of poker. I don't know where you do your negotiating, Pettycoat Lane? Foxtons? However in big complex business and diplomatic negotiations you do exactly what the EU have already done and set out your red lines then work together to resolve agreement in the areas where there are concessions to be made in a detailed examination of all the complexity, the numbers, the regulations and law, the logistics, to identify the options and agree the one where there is most mutual benefit. It was long ago recognised in business that confrontational negotiation does not work for complex business and other relationships.

So the EU have set out the redlines, no cherry picking sector deals, no access to the single market without full contribution, no trade deal until everything else is settled etc and the areas where compromise are needed, transitional deal, Northern Ireland etc. They are setting the agenda. Meanwhile May is still sabre rattling for the home audience and handing them the initiative instead of getting on with preparing for the hard complex detailed stuff of negotiation.

That is why no plan and no knowledge of the complexities is culpably negligent.

This was the complexity that Sir Ivan Rodgers as an experienced negotiator was trying to point up the need to prepare for but May and her Brexiteers did not want to listen....

Assuming that May wins her mandate, she and Cameron before her will have wasted a whole year, bar a couple of weeks. It's no wonder she now wants five years.

FFS, TM is now talking about the EU ganging up on us [[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-labour-supporters-general-election-lend-me-their-vote-brexit-success-eu-tory-leader-a7706096.html here]

It's pitiful.

They are not 'ganging up on us' just because they don't think we are the special snowflakes she thinks we are.

As for the bollocks about 'strengthening her hand', that's just more bravado.

It doesn't matter if every single person in the UK votes for her, it won't suddenly give us the upper hand in negiotiations where we have fuck all to play with.

link fail

I don't think anyone on Brexit or Remain side (and I'm a Remainer) has ever thought we would ever have an upper hand. We are one out of 28. There are things the 27 want from us we can negotiate over but we will just have to do our best with the bad job which is Brexit. The more votes May gets however the better so I hope everyone on this thread votes conservative.

Why does more votes for May help anything other than her ego?

Still waiting to hear why more votes for May is good. I would think the opposite myself in that a good few votes less might teach her a bit of humility. It might make her realise that communication is a two way process. Instead of her repeating her latest soundbite to whatever question is asked.

Still waiting to hear why more votes for May is good

It won't make the slightest bit of difference to the EU / Brexit negotiations, but it will shut you lot up for a start.
If she wins comfortably you won't be able to whinge & moan about the '48%' anymore.
Because If the 48% who voted to remain go out and vote libdem, you'll get loads of your anti-Brexit MP's who can try and sabotage Brexit ( your aim )

If the liddems don't do very well in this general election what more can you moan about?

At least Surferjet is honest realistic about the fact that TM's stated reason for calling a GE is a lie

What an indictment about the state of politics that we don't expect better from our politicians

but it will shut you lot up for a start.

Ah, I love honesty. The greatest priority is all about shutting people up for expressing opinions that are not to one's personal taste.

People who were against Communism or Apartheid didn't roll over and shut up.

The more votes May gets however the better so I hope everyone on this thread votes conservative.

I would also like to understand why you think this.

Be back to post later, but as a rule: I would expect that the more challenge and exposure to diverse views something like this gets, the better outcome for all.

The prospect of a TM-led government who don't have to listen to anyone outside their own party is frankly horrifying. They're already not listening to Scotland or NI. Or UK business (unless they agree in advance of the meeting not to mention anything negative about brexit). Or remainers who might have gone for an EEA option, nay brexiters who wanted an EEA style option.

And especially as I hear the CCHQ is ensuring pro-Brexit candidates for the GE. How will they rein in the Bastards? [if indeed that's the enemy].

David Aaronovitch was good on this (paywall) www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-is-asking-voters-to-sign-blank-cheque-in-snap-election-2l7h6scc9

It's all bollocks really, IMHO.

lala

are you saying...don't worry, civil servants will be able to sort this out?

There was a bloody amazing thing that Gus O'Donnell did post-ref, where he (as ex chief of the civil service) talked to people about how the civil service might respond to the brexit challenge.

It's this!
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07qbcb6

He is very polite even to john redwood and at one stage says something like. "I wonder if in ten years we'll look back and go, yes, it's sorted now....[trails off into the abyss]"

It is a fucking huge job for the civil service - I will actually listen again and correct my shit quote as this was in those early hopeful days when all was possible....

They're already not listening to Scotland or NI. Or UK business (unless they agree in advance of the meeting not to mention anything negative about brexit)

Is this true about business? They can't mention anything negative about Brexit? Does this include criticism of hard Brexit?

surfer you are assuming there that people are going to vote based on Brexit above all else. I know some fervent remainers who couldn't bring themselves to vote anything but Tory and are hoping that a larger majority in the Commons will give TM the mandate to be able to tell the ardent Brexiteers, who are in the minority and who are currently setting the agenda where to go. I know Labour supporters who would never dream of voting Lib Dem after the con-dem coalition. I appreciate that this is just from a small pool of people I know but I really don't think that most people give that much of an arse about Brexit at the moment and won't until the effects start showing way down the line. With FPTP as opposed to one person one vote and people voting on multiple issues this is certainly not going to be the equivalent of a second referendum.

So I will keep "moaning" until I am proven wrong in my conviction that this is one almighty fuck up from start to finish. As is my right in a democracy.