Westministenders: Oh No Not Another One. Thread that is.

[RedToothBrush]

In this edition of Westministers we play a game of ‘Where are they now?’

In June 2016 our screens were subjected to the sight of a number of particularly vocal MPs who participated in debates and stood on soap boxes to talk about the referendum.

The most noticeable of these for Leave were perhaps Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Andrea Leadsom, Gisela Stuart, Nigel Farage, Priti Patel and Kate Hoey. For Remain it was David Cameron, George Osborne, Jeremy Corbyn, Ruth Davidson, Sadiq Khan, Nicola Sturgeon, Nick Clegg and Tim Farron.

It is starting to seem that anyone involved in campaigning either for or against Brexit in June 2016 has faced an epic battle for survival. Just how long can they last before being defeated or conceding defeat.

David Cameron’s scalp was the first to go, as he swanned off leaving everyone to clear up his mess.

Boris Johnson, who was keen to stamp his mark and pitch for the leadership by stitching up Cameron, got stitched up by Michael Gove who also lost his own bid for leadership as a result.

Johnson, of course, still lives to fight another day by getting a nice job as Theresa’s whipping boy. He’s occasionally let out by himself, but its Michael Fallon who does the ‘Grown Up Business’. He was said to be one of the last to support an early election. I can’t think why that might be.

Poor old Gove is now confined to a straight-jacket, the back benches where he’s been told to think about what he’s done like a naughty school child and a column in the Times

Andrea Leadsom was sent to a field of cows never to be seen again except to pop up for the odd cameo line shouting about ‘Jam’.

Queen Theresa also dealt with the other Conservative Leader Leave Candidate Mr Liam Fox, by shipping him off to every dodgy corner of the global to get pampered by state hostility.

Stephen Crabb simply crawled back under his rock.

The announcement of the General Election seems to be like the major soap incident episode where half the cast get killed off by a totally unrealistic disaster because their acting contracts weren’t being renewed.

The quitters and abdicators who now have legged it at the sight of a General Election are Gisela ‘Champion of the Brexit Bus’ Stuart and Nigel ‘Too chicken to be defeated for an eighth time and risk losing my nice EU pension’ Farage. George Osborne took the advice of his school teachers and had another career to fall back on when he didn’t become successful in his first choice.

Its rather starting to look like the curse of being a leading Brexiteer is to be made to disappear off the face of the earth or fuck off when the going gets tough. Have you seen Priti Patel lately? Does she even still exist? And Chris Grayling? He was convinced he was going to get chancellor when he supported May in her bid for the leadership.
Instead he got packed off transport and disappeared off the face of the earth much to the annoyance of everyone caught up in the rail strikes.

The only one who is remotely visible seems to be David Davis and is like May’s pet poodle who just tries to please his owner.

It’s almost like the only one still standing or hasn’t been banished is Kate Hoey. And the Lib Dems are trying to work on that one and make her sink beneath the waves, on board her Alan Partridge Titanic once and for all.

Conversely the visible Remainers seem to be – on the face of it - fairing rather better at the moment.

Sadiq Khan is hugely popular and actually does his job rather than fannying about on zip wires. Ruth Davidson is also well respected and apparently has saved Priti Patel’s job from abolition. If the rumours are to be believed bored with scrapping with Nicola, she might be lining herself up for ‘Big Things’ in Westminister. Cameron’s one time love interest, Nick Clegg hasn’t shaken the tarnish of the coalition but he is enjoying a new reputation as the Brexit Soothsayer and some people actually know who Tim Farron is now, which is progress. Nicola Sturgeon is of course riding high and seems to be a permanent thorn in Theresa’s side.

Jeremy ‘I’m a Remainer, honest comrades’ Corbyn is the one who seems to be something of a walking disaster area yet is also thriving with it like a zombie who just keeps going regardless of what you throw at him.

And then of course there is Queen Theresa. The Remainer. Who has crushed everyone in her party. Not just the saboteurs. Even her supposed ally Hammond and BBF Rudd have been thrown under the bus at her wimb when its suited May personally.

The General Election now sets a new scene and opportunity for new characters to emerge. Now the rats have left the ship or been put in their place.

Will May set course to the left or to the right or simply plow on like a bull in a china shop?

Anyway I’m now looking forward to the shocking soap opera moment where your favourite hero or villain gets killed off in a twist you didn’t see coming. Role on June 8th. If only to get pass the upcoming horror of the next six weeks.

Until now the strategy has been to rely on other countries to train people and then ensure they will stay in the uk instead.
That's exactly what the uk has done with doctors and nurses when it went to recruit them in india and SA, brought these people all trained to the uk whilst depriving a country that really needed them of the people they had trained....
You need to remember that the uk has capped the number of doctors that are training, hence the reason why it's so hard to get a place to train as s doctor whilst knowing there is a shortage of doctors..,,,
This is what there is too behind 'we are recruiting the best people fir the job. It doesn't matter where they are coming from'

Only, of course, this does tbeirk anymore when you close your frontiers.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Trades has announced record manufacturing figures - with 4 out of every 10 vehicles produced in the UK going to the EU. They are desperate to avoid "barriers to trade, whether tariff, customs or other regulatory obstacles", of course.
www.smmt.co.uk/2017/03/double-digit-growth-for-uk-car-exports-in-february-drives-monthly-production-above-150000/

Cross your fingers, SMMT.

That should be "and Traders", obviously.

I think I have posted this before on Mumsnet, but some years ago Oxford Brookes' History dept. was rated higher than Oxford University's. Shock horror all around, and both Universities were invited onto (I think) the Today programme to explain.
Oxford Uni would not send anyone, but a nice chap from Brookes explained that, whereas Oxford Uni appointed people they liked and told them what to teach, Brookes appointed people that were good and let them teach what they wanted.

It is not strictly true that the baby boomers had a free education. Back in the 70s fees and grants were means tested. It was a particular factor in the inequality of opportunity that faced women. Quite a few girls i knew did not go to university because their sexist Fathers were not prepared to fund them. I also remember a perverse inequality where students on the full grant could live quite comfortably whilst students from wealthy families who were not prepared to give them an equivalent amount or even anything at all had to work / struggle to get by.

Perhaps Miss Moon can comment further but my DD shared her flat with a couple of students from single parent families and they automatically got a bursary and scholarship from the university to supplement their grant (as it was then for poorer students). The University advertised very clearly on the website that a scholarship for the fees and a bursary of £3000 would automatically be granted to students in receipt of the maintenance grant. I don't know how widespread that was / is? Her experience was that it was not the poorest students who struggled financially but the ones where their parents were not quite badly of enough to qualify for the maintenance grant but not well enough to be making a meaningful contribution like paying their rent. You would have to scrimp and save for the maintenance loan to cover rent and living costs. Most students in that position work, which can be a problem if you do time intensive STEM courses.

I quite agree that some of the vocational course at ex polys are extremely good and some the academic courses at universities further up the tables are not but my friend teaches in a rural school in a poor area and tears her hair out that her students only apply to vocational courses and will not even consider studying academic subjects at universities at the top of the tables. Another factor in the middle classes dominating the universities at the top of the tables.

I'm at Oxford Brookes at the moment doing an undergrad degree.

I would be more than happy if my kids came here too - it's got a very broad range of subjects and the lecturers I've had to date have been very good.

I did an MBA at a London business School, best lecturer we ever had was from Oxford Brookes.......

I'm one of a few single parents on my course, all of us have bursaries directly from there as well as access to the national grant and loan scheme, as well as help with childcare costs if needed.

I was prepared to have to struggle a bit to become a full time student at 40+, and was surprised to find that it wasn't as expensive/barrier to accessing higher education as I'd expected.

Britain and US : expensive racism, food prices rise as migrant labour deported.
occupydemocrats.com/2017/04/26/americas-largest-farming-group-just-came-trumps-deportation-plans/

the undoubtedly academically clever David Cameron with his Oxford degree

I don't know about the undoubted actually - I think his main problem was that he was a lightweight and lazy intellectually. He didn't get his head round the implications of Lansley's NHS reforms until it was too late. He didn't think through the consequences of the referendum. He never really bothered to engage with life as it's lived by the majority country. It's not as difficult as people think to get an Oxford first, you just need a good memory.

"The Lib Dems are clearly becoming a worry to some."

Good .

NancyWake - you put it better than me. I think Dodgy Dave got a first, and had a good brain. Didn't his tutor say he was one of the brightest students he taught? But this doesn't translate into skill in running the country because of the reasons you mention.

As for Theresa May - my impression is of someone hardworking, but a plodder, without the ability to think tangentially and that creative spark, which is necessary in politics.

When it comes to tuition fees all parties have blood on their hands. The only Party who've kept their assurances in recent times were the Tories though, in that they said they'd implement these policies.

But this doesn't translate into skill in running the country because of the reasons you mention.
I have a first class honours in a stem subject from a great uni, not oxbridge but up there. Definitely doesn't translate into running a country!

the undoubtedly academically clever David Cameron with his Oxford degree
I always look at what privately educated people have 'succeeded' in and halve or quarter it. Working class and BME have to be twice, three or four times as 'good' to achieve the same.

I had quite a few friends in similar positions what, particular lower middle class friends who didn't qualify for a grant and didn't get any help from their parents. The loan available was much smaller before fees were brought in and again, you couldn't live on it. I also did a full time STEM course and it was pretty to hard to fit a job in apart from bar work.
Basically, unless your parents were rich you were completely skint- at least it was a social leveller . After bills, I had £50 a week for food, clothes, travel, going out, books etc.

My mum, who had qualified for a full grant in the 70s, thought the problem was that the grant had not increased with inflation. The grant I was given in the mid 90s was not much bigger than the one she had had in the early 70s

I have met plenty of highly intelligent people that can barely manage a small group of people, let alone a country. Intelligence doesn't equal common sense. And yeah, a private education gives you a MASSIVE educational advantage. I saw this all the time in Oxbridge, my post grad halls were 80% privately educated. I had about 3 friends in college who had been through the state school system . I know that Oxbridge put a lot of effort into outreach to state schools but they can't change such an entrenched situation where private school pupils are coached from an early timepoint to aim for Oxbridge whilst state schools are busy pulling up a much more varied intake to a basic standard.

Re sexist parents not paying, slightly differently my parents didn't approve of what I wanted to study at university as it wasn't academic enough. Because of their income, if they'd refused to fund me (which is what they said) I could never have lived on the basic maintenance loan and I wouldn't have qualified for further support. They wouldn't have let me live at home and work in the summer, so I wouldn't have been able to get enough together to cover it. I wanted a degree, so I had to study something else. Fast forward to when I did my PGCE on £9k fees (and assessed against my husband's salary) and it felt like they were throwing money at me. It doubled my student debt, and on a teachers salary I don't think I'll ever clear it, but I had plenty of funding.

Re wiping teachers debt - there's a really strong argument for this. At the moment they give out big bursaries for some subjects to get you in, but it means that you earn significantly more in that training year than you will as a teacher for at least the next 5 years. I'm in London with the extra weighting and I still don't bring home as much as I did on bursary + loan, and I didn't get the highest rate loan! So lots of people train, get QTS and then quit. In fact, on the teacher recruitment posts on Facebook you can find teachers advising students to do exactly that: train for the money and then leave. So something linked to years of service would be a better way of keeping teachers in the profession, rather than just training them and maintaining the high rate of attrition (50% in 5 years I think).

My mum, who had qualified for a full grant in the 70s, thought the problem was that the grant had not increased with inflation. The grant I was given in the mid 90s was not much bigger than the one she had had in the early 70s

That's because they'd brought in the student loan and you were expected to borrow to make up the shortfall.

Student loan plus grant didn't make up the shortfall for a lot of my friends. Both were really small. Can't remember the exact figures (it was a long time ago ) but I think both together came to less than £4000 a year. Most people I knew didn't qualify for both tbh- the threshold for the maintenance grant was pretty low.

We did get student overdrafts though, which a lot of people relied on to make up the shortfall.

Students nowadays do seem to have a lot more spending money, although I think the rise of cheap fashion has helped as well.

I know that Oxbridge put a lot of effort into outreach to state schools but they can't change such an entrenched situation where private school pupils are coached from an early timepoint to aim for Oxbridge whilst state schools are busy pulling up a much more varied intake to a basic standard.

I think you need to add another dimension into this point. It is the parents of these children who are driving this. They decide where their child will go to school and there is a reason for that. I have friends who went to Oxbridge who have sent their sons to a private school in London with the best Oxbridge outcomes - they want their son to follow in their footsteps. So the schools and parents live in the this symbiotic relationship.

I don't think you can criticize children for the school they go to which is chosen by their parents.

The person who set up Momentum and Seamus Milne both went to Winchester College, so they don't all end up doing stuff to pigs and joining drinking clubs (before running the country!)

Re "wealthy" parents "controlling" their kids in the days of means tested grants, while I didn't meet any while I was at Uni (and was fortunate that my parents supported me whatever I wanted to do my mum had been forced to study Science rather than English by her parents but never completed it as she fell pregnant with me finally did her English degree as a mature student in this country ), I do remember a lad I worked alongside in the early 90s whose dad (CEO of the company we were indirectly working for we were working as management consultants within the company) refused to give him any maintenance at all because "I got no help when I was young" but because the ability to access student loans was also means tested(?), he was effectively having to work almost full time while trying to squeeze in his Uni studies.

So in amongst the normal waffle from Johnson and the mugwump comment etc, it seems he's repeated the incorrect £350m figure being sent to the EU. Knowingly lying or alternative facts?