Were there any LD supporters who voted Leave?

[optionalrationale]

I am a "natural" Labour supporter and former party member. I supported Labour Leave in the EU Ref and will be voting Conservative for the first time in my life in the GE. I wondered if there were any LD Leavers. I know this might be rare but I wondered if there were any at all. Or is LD Leaver an impossible combination.

[BrexshitMeansBrexshit]

Bolshy Again, this comes back to the government stoking division for their own ends.
Out of interest, who do we think TM means when she refers to 'extremists' in this video?
www.facebook.com/Channel4NewsDemocracy/videos/1280419885369285/

TBH, I think leave-supporters really don't get what it's like for the 48% of non-Brexit supporters to feel so sidelined and vilified.

[WrongTrouser]

I have to admit, wrong, I have stopped paying attention to anything Diane abbot says. I even turn off the radio when she comes on (ditto McDonell)

A wise move

[WrongTrouser]

TBH, I think leave-supporters really don't get what it's like for the 48% of non-Brexit supporters to feel so sidelined and vilified

I am glad I asked my question as, tbh, I don't think I had fully understood the insults being thrown at remainers.

I think one thing which would help, and I include myself in this, is for everyone to be clearer about who is throwing insults around, and try not to make generalised statements which paint a false picture. For example, Gina Miller has received hideous abuse from some leave voters but I believe most leave voters are as horrified about this as remain voters. I think the only way forward is to try to halt the tribalism which is obvs on both sides

[Peregrina]

I think the only way forward is to try to halt the tribalism which is obvs on both sides.

And here a lead from our Prime Minister and her MPs would be a good start. We haven't had that. May refused to condemn the Mail's headline about the Judges being enemies of the people. Propaganda straight out of the Nazi copybook. She bleated about valuing a free Press, but missed out a statement about there being a line which a civilised society shouldn't cross.

The Tory Conference - calling for firms to make lists of Foreign nationals.

Ditto Trump's Muslim ban - whilst May was in Turkey cosying up to Erdogan. She had a half-hearted statement dragged out of her at the third request.

I wrote to my MP re the 'Enemies of the People' in the Mail. When I chased her up she swore she never received the letter, which quite frankly, I don't believe. I helpfully emailed a copy. No response.

A lead to halt tribalism needs to come from the top, and so far, May and her cronies have fanned the flames.

[WrongTrouser]

A lead to halt tribalism needs to come from the top, and so far, May and her cronies have fanned the flames

I disagree. It needs to come from everyone, including the top of course, but it is needed at all levels.

[Peregrina]

Do you agree that a lack of lead from the top is at best unhelpful?

[Bolshybookworm]

I disagree again. We can try and bridge the gap but we're fighting a losing battle if the government and the press say otherwise.

[Bolshybookworm]

Their behaviour actively drives division by making those of us who have been vilified and ignored feel resentful and frankly, quite scared.

[Bolshybookworm]

I feel pushed into a tribe tbh.

[optionalrationale]

Today 08:16 Bolshybookworm

"And England is thriving under the conservatives. Please don't foist them on us because you're annoyed with SNP. Genuine plea"

This is the paradox of UK politics since 2015. With Scots electing SNP MPs to Westminster, you make it impossible for anyone but a Tory to be in Downing Street.

[optionalrationale]

WrongTrouser
I absolutely agree with this.

"Insults aimed at me as a leave voter:

stupid

racist, xenophobic

fascist

"old" (inverted comments as I am not sure when it became a bad thing to be old) and "therefore" not worthy of having a vote

small-minded, inward looking, little Englander

duped, conned, shouldn't have been given the responsibility of a vote

an ally of the murderer of Jo Cox

that I don't care about my children's future aka that I don't care about my children"

When you tell (internationally minded or Democratic leaning) Americans that you voted Leave they are shocked and amazed that your aren't dragging your Swastika tatooed knuckles along the ground. If you explain to them the fundamental flaws in the design of the EU and its almost total lack of democratic accountability, they typically have never heard any of this before.

The Leave campaign thought the campaign of Fear, Insult and Denigration by association would work. But I actually think it had the complete opposite effect.

[Dannythechampion]

"If you explain to them the fundamental flaws in the design of the EU and its almost total lack of democratic accountability."

Which of course, is actually incorrect.

[optionalrationale]

Today 06:40 Bolshybookworm

"You're not going to get a left wing Brexit if you vote Tory though, are you? And by the time labour are back in power (if ever) that ship will have long since sailed.

This is what I don't understand, this "Brexit at all costs" mentality, even if it results in the loss of many of the things that those on the left hold dear"

I'm not sure the politics of left wing or right wing apply any more to the debate about Brexit. Cosmopolitan, liberal minded, university-educated people, who have lived abroad, working for international businesses, historically Labour supporting (and, in my case, former) Labour members are all "assumed" to be natural Remainers.

Not so.

I think the very worst of all worlds would be some kind of shoddy half in half out compromise which I believe the Liberal Democrats are in favour of (please correct me if I am mistaken).

If "Hard Brexit" means a clear and clean break - we are no longer of the EU or the Common Market, I am all for that.

British Parliamentary democracy did fine for centuries before we joined this institution in the 1970s. We can do so again.

The EU is a failing institution anyway. The Euro was a catastrophic error for many Southern European countries and the patience of German taxpayers is finite.

More and more people will be glad we got out when we did.

[Peregrina]

I think the very worst of all worlds would be some kind of shoddy half in half out compromise .......

Funnily enough, this is what some of the fine upstanding Leavers wanted. Farage extolled the success of Norway. Gisela Stuart similar. Gisela has decided not to stick around to promote the Brexit she so enthusiastically supported and Farage isn't bothering to try for Parliament again. Such a pity they don't suit their actions to their words.

[Dannythechampion]

"British Parliamentary democracy did fine for centuries before we joined this institution in the 1970s. We can do so again."

Funny that, because for centuries we didn't really have democracy because we didn't have universal suffrage.

"The EU is a failing institution anyway. The Euro was a catastrophic error for many Southern European countries and the patience of German taxpayers is finite."

The Euro was great for many Southern European countries, trade increased, their economies grew. Some of them, like Spain are recovering now.

[optionalrationale]

Danny
Re democratic accountability in the EU.
Please clarify. If a British citizen is fundamentally opposed to the leadership of the Prime Minister, there is nothing stopping him / her filing their papers and standing as a candidate against him / her in the PM's own parliamentary constituency and removing that person from office (if they can persuade enough voters in that constituency to vote for them). This course of action is open to anyone who passionately believes TM is not up to the job.

As a citizen of the EU, there is absolutely no way for me as an individual to remove Junkers or Tusk from office.

The European Parliament does not make any laws. The laws are proposed and suggested by bureaucrats. We do not directly vote for MEPs (as individuals), we vote for parties whose executives decide who the representative will be.

Members of the EU executive body are not elected by anyone. The most powerful jobs in the EU are made by appointment (mainly former senior National politicians). Ordinary citizens have no say in who they are. Peter Mandelson was appointed to suchna role after he stopped being an MP in the UK. The British people had no way of getting rid of him

[optionalrationale]

Peregrina

"I think the very worst of all worlds would be some kind of shoddy half in half out compromise .......

Funnily enough, this is what some of the fine upstanding Leavers wanted. Farage extolled the success of Norway. Gisela Stuart similar"

In that case you should be pleased and optimistic.
You don't sound pleased and optimistic.

[Peregrina]

Both Junckers and Tusk hold elected Office. Cameron voted against Junckers - I don't know how he voted as regards Tusk. So by giving your vote to the Tories, you effectively asked Cameron to vote on your behalf.OK he got outvoted, but that applies to us all in Parliamentary elections. I don't vote Tory, but I got lumbered with Cameron, and then May. The only way I personally could have got rid of Cameron was by moving to Witney and voting against him. He did obligingly fall on his sword when he made a shambles of the Referendum but that was just a stroke of luck.

[optionalrationale]

Today 12:35 Dannythechampion

"Funny that, because for centuries we didn't really have democracy because we didn't have universal suffrage"

We had universal sufferage long before your pals in Germany, France, Italy and Spain.

[Peregrina]

I think it's a pity that neither Stuart or Farage are standing for Parliament. I would have loved to see them suit their actions to their words, so I am disappointed.

[optionalrationale]

Peregrina

"Both Junckers and Tusk hold elected Office."

Elected by whom? How could I (as an ordinary EU citizen) stand against them?

Blair had 6 opponents stand against him in Sedgefield in 2001. How many choices / alternatives did I get for Tusk?

[Peregrina]

Just told you - Junckers as it happens wasn't elected by Cameron, but he did have a vote.

[optionalrationale]

Today 12:49 Peregrina

"I think it's a pity that neither Stuart or Farage are standing for Parliament. I would have loved to see them suit their actions to their words, so I am disappointed"

Assumimg you are a British citizen (and not a convicted criminal etc), there is absolutely NOTHING at all standing in the way of you putting yourself forward as a candidate for parliament in Gisela Stuart's constituency. If you were 100% committed to giving a democratic voice to the people you feel she let down - you could start this process in the coming days and have your name on the ballot paper on June 8th.
I encourage you to do it.

[Dannythechampion]

The commission is essentially the civil service, you have no way of getting rid of civil servants directly either, I doubt you even know who Jeremy Heywood is. I don't see you complaining about that.

The appointments to the commissioners roles are made by the democratically elected governments of each individual country, so a change of government, if part of the manifesto, can lead to changes in both who represents the country at that level.

The President of the Council is appointed by a vote of the council of ministers ( whom are democratically elected). The role doesn't have the same level of power of any President or Leader of a country, and is mainly to do with seeking consensus across the European Council. It also rotates every two years.

You do directly vote for MEPs, their names are on the ballot, you don't just vote UKIP or Labour etc.

EU parliament members can propose laws, they can make recommendations to the commission, which will then draw up the laws and submit them to parliament. The reason it happens like this is that the commission sees the negotiations with civil servants from all of the 28 countries before it then gets submitted to parliament and the council for approval.

Its complicated.

If you want a real lack of democracy then Brexit is what you want, the actions followed by the government at the start were anti democratic.

[Peregrina]

Yes, I could, but I think it is better to stand in the places you live in and know the area. Which I will give Farage his due for, he did stand in Kent and lives in Kent. I suspect also that with the Tory election fraud he might have been deprived of a win. The fact that I don't like the man doesn't mean that he should have been cheated out of a win.

My Constituency has chosen its Candidate, so I am out of luck there.