Westministers: The Lords Strike Back

[RedToothBrush]

This needs no fanfare or lengthy post. Just this:

The Lords are demanding amendments unilateral protection for EU citizens.

Labour was split 358 for an amendment to 256 against.

This is after Amber Rudd had tried to reassure the Lords by writing a letter assuring peers that EU citizens would be treated with the utmost respect.

Utmost respect = an amendment to guarantee unilateral support.

Today is a good day. It should have been done in the first place.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/02/irene-clennell-deported-uk-terrorist
"I was forcibly deported from the UK like a terrorist, restrained and under guard................

Above all, I would appeal to all those who have made “migrant” a term of abuse to think about the human cost of their actions. Wanting to build a life and a family, and to be around people and places that you love, is not a crime"

I, like many people think she is doing a good job for the country

She should be put on trial for breach of ECHR.

There are many posters on here who are clearly only concerned about their own personal position and not about what is best for the UK.

Nope! Am concerned about my personal position as is surely normal, and the position of millions like me plus I think Brexit is totally and utterly the wrong decision for the majority of the UK for many reasons. Not necessarily in that order.

The sooner the Brexit process begins the sooner we get on with negotiating protection for EU workers that live here.

The sooner the Brexit process begins the sooner we get on with negotiating protection for EU workers that live here

The sooner the government gets a democratic mandate for an economically, politically and morally duplicitous and destructive policy the sooner we can try to re build the damage and cost of the last 8months.

There are many posters on here who are clearly only concerned about their own personal position and not about what is best for the UK.

Like most people, we're interested in both. Mostly, those interests coïncide: for example, I work for a very large manufacturer and exporter in a sector which will be damaged by a hard brexit. We employ a lot of EU scientists, technicians and managers in the UK; we rely on the fact that customs borders don't exist to get products to our customers on time. If brexit harms my employer, it harms my prospects (by putting my job at risk and/ or reducing my pay), but it also affects Britain, because a small number of large exporters make up a big proportion of manufacturing exports.

I don't expect to be personally affected by changes in immigration rules, beyond some annoying paperwork that I could do without - but I know lots of people who might be, including British friends living in EU countries but also my many EU colleagues at work.

The idea that people are opposing brexit for personal gain, but leavers are purely motivated by the best interests of the country is pretty abhorrent, actually.

Tryingto save up
I agree on most of what you have said especially the house of commons.

I agree that there are many people concerned about their own personal position and I think that is only natural.

I would also be concerned about my own personal position if I was an EU national in the Uk and I would also be worried about the rights of Britons abroad.

I would have preferred a sensible agreement to be made between the UK and the EU. While the eu thought there was a possibility that people might be deported, they may have offered us security for Britons abroad in return for security of eu nationals.

Many on this forum might not like it but this is the foundation of many international agreements. Nothing is as nice and fluffy as we would like it to be.

The house of lords are attempting to remove what could have been a very good way to ensure security for all, by favouring the security of one group (eu nationals) to the disadvantage of the other (UK nationals)

I don't blame people for feeling the way they do about it. Let's face it it is not a pleasant thought negotiating on issues which will effect people so greatly, but I do think it would have created the best outcome for all concerned.

I hope when this is all over the British nationals feel as confident in their rights in the eu as some say they do on this forum

It's also pretty ironic that the 'you don't understand the people of the uk/want personal gains' arguments are being tossed around with telling uk immigrants to the eu don't understand what happens to U.K. migrants within the eu.

Marking place. Thanks as ever, Red.

The sooner the government gets a democratic mandate for an economically, politically and morally duplicitous and destructive policy the sooner we can try to re build the damage and cost of the last 8months.

Yes, I agree. All this delaying is doing the country no good at all.

Most people vote based on a combination of self-interest and what they genuinely think is best for the country.

We can think brexiters are wrong about what's best for the country, but I certainly wouldn't accuse them of voting soley for personal gain (with perhaps the exception of a few rich people like Banks and his ilk).

OTOH it's pretty rich to accuse people of supporting the Lords amendment for personal gain, while telling them that voting down the Lords amendment would have been in their best interests.

Still can't get over brexiters telling immigrants what's best for them, it is both incredibly presumptuous and hilariously and patently insincere .

Immigration of EU citizens is just not a big issue in the EU like it is in the UK (MENA migrants / refugees are a very different matter)
Hence why they ae pretty relaxed about UK expats
It's not virtue, just different demographics

Most EU countries, like Germany, are worried about their falling burthrate & aging population. So well-behaved immigrants are quite welcome.
Noone is really grumbling about Polish plumbers or East European fruit-pickers or care-workers, because they are widely accepted as beneficial to the country they choose.

The Lords are unelected and have no business opposing this Bill, especially as it is the result of a referendum.

Far from it. The Lords have a duty to say that a piece of legislation has been drafted hastily and needs more thought. Particularly with an advisory Referendum designed to appease 40 or so right wingers of the Tory Party, and with a House of Commons which predominantly voted to Remain, but is now hiding behind 'the will of the people' excuse to cover their backs for abdication of their own duties. If Brexit matters it needs to be done properly, not a rush bodged job to appease the right wingers & neo fascists.

The sooner the Brexit process begins the sooner we get on with negotiating protection for EU workers that live here.

The Government could have given them a guarantee protecting them on 24th June 2016, so let's cut out the crocodile tears.

I hate the term immigrants, my friend hates it too. Can we use expats please

It is so often used by knob heads. We call our Brits abroad expats.. can we use it for people here too?

Bigchoc I agree. I don't think people here are either.

I think it is just the view that expats in europe should be given the same guarantee in return.

The hol reduces the chances of that happening.

The hol reduces the chances of that happening.

Only if you view people as bargaining chips. It's more likely to help than the current aggressive stance given the EU don't view immigration in the same tawdry way as a large chunk of the uk.

"The hol reduces the chances of that happening"

It really doesn't.

Okay, so why does it even have to be named? In the Europe that was being built, with FoM, other Europeans were not seen as immigrants. Immigrants are economic refugees from Africa, or second generation foreign workers, or political asylum seekers. The term isused to 'other' people. It's also implicitly racist because it tells you that these people don't really belong here. In the Netherlands, enough racism, but people from the UK are not immigrants, people from Belgium or Germany are not immigrants. Europeans live in different areas, like a person from Idaho can move to New York. That was the plan. Brexit has thoroughly put a spanner in that one. But now asking rEU to start treating their inhabitants like the UK does, on threat of deportation, is absurd. The UK does not appear to want to stay by giving Europeans a right to stay and they have been very clear that this is because they, we, are being used as a bargaining tool.

Can I ask a question? Despite having read quite a lot of threads on here, I am still not clear on what guaranteeing EU citizens the right to say here means?

Now I assumed that guaranteeing EU citizens who lived here on 23rd June last year of whatever cut off date is decided (Article 50 invokation date, whatever) right to stay, meant just that (god knows how they prove it and how they process all that, etc).

But now I see talk of having lived here for 5 years, etc, etc? Is this not the current rules for applying for permanent residency (if from outside the EU, but currently being applied to those from within who want to apply for it so they don't have to worry)? Surely someone from the EU who moved here in, say 2014, should be allowed to stay no questions asked, within the negotiations that the UK are going to start after A50 is invoked?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I fear it isn't(!)

"There are many posters on here who are clearly only concerned about their own personal position and not about what is best for the UK." ?

On form I see

The irony of people complaining about leavers being racist....swiftly followed by more or less justifying racist attitudes to people from Africa (being not well behaved etc.) is very intriguing.

Excuse me?! YER if that is about me you've misunderstood my post. I'm calling out racist labelling of people, not endorsing it.

On form I see
Yes, wonder when this shift finishes.

Summer The cutoff date is one issue to be negotiated - 3 years / 5 years / who knows.

The 5 years is because of the UN regs iirc incorporated into EU law for "3rd countries" i.e. non-EU.
The EU & UK almost certainly won't treat each others expats worse than they treat those from 3rd countries
However, the UK govt wants to roll back Human Rights legistaltion specifically to help deport immigrants, so I don't know what the rules will be afterwards for non-EU immigrants either.

A Govt ministers was quoted as saying they don't want "half of Rumania & Hungary coming here" and the govt seems to be saying their cutoff who arrived is the 2016 referendum, not the Brexit date.