Westministers: The Lords Strike Back

[RedToothBrush]

This needs no fanfare or lengthy post. Just this:

The Lords are demanding amendments unilateral protection for EU citizens.

Labour was split 358 for an amendment to 256 against.

This is after Amber Rudd had tried to reassure the Lords by writing a letter assuring peers that EU citizens would be treated with the utmost respect.

Utmost respect = an amendment to guarantee unilateral support.

Today is a good day. It should have been done in the first place.

Pete North is insane. Compare what he defines as "hassle":

I expect markets will also go into turmoil as we struggle to make sense of what is happening. With exports badly hit we will see prices fluctuating as producers find ways to sell their surpluses on the domestic market. Some prices will crash, others will skyrocket. Meanwhile the government will be doing a lot more and we can expect to see the normal business of government shelved. I expect to see cuts and major changes in spending priorities. We will also likely see a surge in borrowing.

...I think we are going to see crisis after crisis and we will be faced with the stark reality that things cannot continue as before. Hard choices will have to be made and they are likely to have deeply unpopular consequences. It is likely that we will see considerable inflation and it will be harder to make ends meet. Government may be forced to take some pretty radical measures to help take the edge off. We can only guess what that may be.

with what he defines as "a living hell":

For me, Britain has been a living hell for the last fifteen years. Tedious to the point of tears. Old lefties like to moan about gentrification but they are partly correct. Go to Exeter, Bath, Bristol, Bradford and everywhere you go looks and feels the same. The same chain stores, the same shopping centres, the same everything everywhere. Music festivals are now sanitised beyond any concept of fun. Everything is at the behest of health and safety and the demands of the insurers.

particularly infuriatingly he acknowledges the damage coming to the NHS but claims that the poorest will notice little difference from the post-Brexit turmoil as they already have next to nothing, as though they don't rely on public services.

I can't believe there are many like him that believe it is worth condemning a generation or more to a severe drop in living standards, and suffering on a huge scale, for the sake of getting rid of costa coffee on the high street.

thank you Peregrina

Peter North declares that for him, Brexit is worth the hassle. The comments tend not to agree with him

His doesn't appear to agree with himself. He's got as far as realising Brexit will be a disaster, but not quite as far as admitting that that the whole thing is a mistake.

It will take a lot longer than a decade to recover, more like two. In 10 years we will only just have finalised trade deals.

Ooohh lala I love a bit of Lionel Shriver and was only thinking the other day she must be due a book. Thanks

I agree re the Norths. They know their stuff. Their conclusion was different but that's fine. They put a damn lot of thought into it. Which means they can see the clusterfuck happening too. I wish there were more brave souls like them out there saying the same tbh.

As a prominent Leave campaigner can you imagine the derision if he turned his coat now?

He has to keep up the charade of lip service to the aims of Brexit otherwise no-one would take him seriously.

I think he's more value criticising Brexit from within.

I like her as well hashi

I think that might be one to read

< contrary > blush
I admire & respect the Norths, because they are highly knowledgeable Leavers, who don't lie or believe in unicorns.

I don't think this is contrary at all. I've never had a problem with leavers like the Norths, or indeed my father who has long been of this persuasion. I disagree with them, of course - I don't necessarily disagree with some of their misgivings about the EU (they were right about the UK not joining the euro, after all); where we part company is with regards to whether the end justifies the means. They thought that leaving the EU was a cause that justified getting into bed with fascists, lunatics and peole with two figure IQs; I profoundly disagree with this.

Both the Norths, and especially North Senior, have a lot of interesting things to say and a lot of relevant knowledge. I occasionally read the eureferendum blog and link to it on here.

I think that brexit sceptics like us have a lot in common with the mild Eurosceptics like the Norths: a respect for expertise and evidence, and an understanding that only compromise is going to get us out of this mess.

OTOH I agree with Kaija that the younger one, although he has some rational things to say, comes across as a bit of an entitled git who doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions.

The older one is more palatable, I quite like his "grumpy old man" schtick.

I also like the Norths, especially Richard North. His blog is very measured and informative. At least they have reasoned, well-supported arguments. The lack of reason, disregard for the facts, and jingoism is what bothers me most about Brexit.

The Norths do come across as knowledgeable and measured, but I think they've got their definitions of "hassle" and "living hell" the wrong way round .

You could not make this up. A plan to boost trade with Commonwealth countries christened Empire 2.0 by civil servants (do I detect some Sir Humphrey irony) or as Dan Snow tweets "Take back control.... of other people's countries" www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-aim-to-build-empire-2-0-with-african-commonwealth-after-brexit-v9bs6f6z9

I find myself idly wondering how teams would score in a history quiz between Leavers and Remainers.

Based purely on personal experience, it seems Leavers have a shaky grasp of history at best ... I suspect Leavers would lose ...

The government may do well to note Indian MP & writer Shashi Tharoor's comments to C4 news:

Britons suffer 'historical amnesia' over atrocities of their former empire

It is a British problem, first of all because there is so much historical amnesia about what the empire really entailed

The fact you don’t really teach colonial history in your schools... children doing A-Levels in history don’t learn a line of colonial history.

There’s no real awareness of the atrocities, of the fact that Britain financed its Industrial Revolution and its prosperity from the depredations of empire, the fact that Britain came to one of the richest countries in the world in the 18th century and reduced it, after two centuries of plunder, to one of the poorest

He also commented that Britain would have to accept more Indian workers and students if it wanted a trade deal post-Brexit.

As the per North's latest blog: he's good on details of the mess without defining what the gains will be. What is worth the hassle? There's vague whiffle about being freed from an EU cage and social revolution which is as ditsily unicornish as any Leave schtick I have read.

It is not true that students do not study colonial history at A level. My daughter did a module on the Scramble for Africa which did not shy away from the atrocities (particularly the Boer war) or the way that the UK hung on to its colonies to top up its economy post WW2. There is also a module on China which actually if anything I would criticise as having an outdated perspective on the UK as having bought China to its knees through the opium trade (latest research show 90% of the opium smoked in China at the time of the wars was homegrown, and that opium smoking was as integrated into society's mores as alcohol was here, with a lot less fighting )

It is not true that students do not study colonial history at A level

the problem is how many people who had a vote - and used it on June 23rd - did have an appreciation of history ? Beyond being able to quote "The Great Escape" word-for-word and how wonderful Monty was; that is ?

Not recently - over 7 years ago - I mentioned to a colleague (born in Warwickshire, and never been to London in their life) - that there was a Polish War Memorial as you go into London on the A40. Their reaction was surprise that we had put a memorial up to the side we beat. I do wonder, if they did vote in the referendum, which side they voted for ?

Empire 2? Oh my God that is horrific language! Since when does trade equate to empire? Bloody hell! That won't do us any favours.

To be fair when I clicked through to that article I was met by a popup! It was the Trumpster himself!

I think there will be equal leavers and remainers with interest in history.

Depends what they view is the "correct version" of history.

Poland is pretty euro scepic like the uk.

Empire 2? Oh my God that is horrific language!

You wait till La May announces a "Crusade for Trade", and talks about "clearance deals" ....

Oh well... we'll need to wait and see what she comes up with. So long as the solution is sensible she can call it what she wants. Won't help us droning on about the Empire though that's for sure.

DH and I both studied history beyond GCSE, him further than me. Both of us are highly aware at how little we know our colonial history. We've both picked up more by self studying.

Lurking I completely agree. However the younger generation are growing up without those preconceptions.

Having grown up in an area of Polish immigration ( there are established Polish communities in both Ealing and West Yorkshire that go back to WW2) I was completely aware of the role of the Polish in WW2. West Yorkshire apart from Leeds voted leave though, including not a few of those second generation descendants of Polish immigrants. I don't remember anybody coming out with the rhetoric they come out with now about immigration then, even though the city had a large immigrant population. We just got on with enjoying the curries and Polish vodka.....

the problem is how many people who had a vote - and used it on June 23rd - did have an appreciation of history

Quite. I'm shocked how flaky the general grasp of even European history is.

I'm sure there's better teaching of colonial history now than when I was at school - but that's not saying much. Our history A level was medieval, early or late modern Britain & Europe. Until my children get to A level it's hard to judge precisely what's on offer now.

However the younger generation are growing up without those preconceptions.

In fact due to the predilection for including study of Nazi Germany in the history curriculum even pre GCSE (I know of few schools these days who do not offer a battle fields / Germany trip of some sort as well) I notice that they are particularly quick to pick up the parallels between what is happening now and what happened in the 1930s