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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris and God Knows what next. (I'm all out of ideas!)

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2017 23:56

Still a week until Stoke and Copeland. (Labour Hold/Con Gain unless something strange happens) QT is from Stoke next week.

A50 hits the Lords next week. Melania is being lined up to do something for the women. (God help us all).

Will UKIP survive? Will Nuttall survive? Will Labour survive? Will Trump survive? Will CNN survive? Will the Lords survive? Will Theresa May survive a class room of children?

All these questions and more

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LurkingHusband · 21/02/2017 13:37

However, I do think the 'don't be a dick rule' of self censorship should be promoted more

Or, the US doctrine of "FIRE ! in a crowded theater" ?

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2017 13:45

That's the crux of tolerance/free speech etc for me - censoring people doesn't work, it's counterproductive - but pushing the message of individual responsibility for your words & actions is spot on, and "don't be a dick" nails it.

As taught to me, by the philosophy about driving from May, Hammond and Clarkson (yes really!) and The Last Leg. I actually think that makes it an easier to sell to boys as the problems with libertarianism are less apparent to boys and they are more vulnerable to its attractions. Its really not from a feminist perspective which often tends to be more moralistic in tone.

The May, Hammond, Clarkson thing started off about speed limits and how speed cameras can be counter productive and dangerous, and it focuses on the idea that you should be allowed to drive at whatever speed you like, provided its appropriate to the circumstances. Then they made a career out of being dicks as if to prove the point...

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RedToothBrush · 21/02/2017 13:51

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/norway-want-brexit-talks-uk-eu-leaders-european-union-a7591491.html
Norway wants to be included in Brexit talks between UK and EU leaders

Well this IS a development.

It looks like the UK potentially has an ally in Brexit talks.

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LurkingHusband · 21/02/2017 13:54

There is also an argument that censorship is a statement that the public (that's everyone on this thread) can't be trusted.

Because hot on the heels of censorship are censors. And then the oft-observed contradiction that whilst the plebs are not allowed to see/hear/watch something in case it "depraves and corrupts" us, the censors can fill their boots, as they are "better than us".

Making that comment reminds me that in East Germany, the children were sometimes asked what the theme tune for the news was. This was to catch parents who were illegally watching West German TV.

People who are able to circumvent UK-mandated censorship would do well to bear that in mind. Beware of letting on something you "shouldn't know" ....

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2017 13:58

Censoring peopel doesn't work ?

In the 1960s, I was the first ever non-white at the village primary school.

I was subject to constant racial abuse from the other kids
They yelled "wog, dirty wog" and "go back home" (My late dad was English and I was born in England - what home ?)
Even after school or at weekends, if they saw me in the park or the fields

My life was a misery for years, until one day they had surrounded me and were yelling "wog, wog" when the headmaster walked in.
He decided they had gone too far and slippered the ringleaders, including his own son
I recvd no further racial abuse from that day. They ignored me, which was fine

So, censorship really brought a big improvement to my life.

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2017 14:02

Censorship Big Choc or being held accountable for being dicks and having to face the consequences of being dicks?

I'd argue your example was not censorship.

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BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2017 14:05

I think people should be able to say ehat they want about individuals, govts or politicians - BUT subject at least to the laws against racism and civil law wrt libel & slander.

The ordinary person should be protected more against harassment - there should be a lower acceptable limit that ordinary individuals should have to suck up.
Telling someone to "go back home" is not freedom of speech

And children especially should be protected against verbal abuse - that doesn't mean locking up / expelling other kids, but stopping them immediately from abusing and explaining why this is wrong & hurtful.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2017 14:08

Those objecting to "PC crap" often do want the freedom to call people "wog" or even "ni@@er"

lalalonglegs · 21/02/2017 14:20

I couldn't work out from that article if Norway is our ally OR whether they are making sure that the UK doesn't get a better deal that Norway has.

MyschoolMyrules · 21/02/2017 14:20

And children especially should be protected against verbal abuse - that doesn't mean locking up / expelling other kids, but stopping them immediately from abusing and explaining why this is wrong & hurtful.

That's all well and good, I agree with you, but when they hear politicians, leaders, commentators stating that they want their country back, and that Europeans are here to take our jobs, and making other thinly veiled xenophobic comments, then it's a lot more difficult to explain to children why it is wrong to treat classmates of a different race or country of origin differently, name calling, bullying, etc. I would expect that in a country where mutual respect and tolerance is a fundamental value, politicians would respect that value, at least as much as respect for freedom of speech. Just as a reminder, the four 'British' value that we have to teach our pupils, (in schools, nurseries, childminder settings) are: Rule of law, mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs, individual liberty, and democracy.

LurkingHusband · 21/02/2017 14:22

It looks like the UK potentially has an ally in Brexit talks

As if ordering a la carte wasn't going to be hard enough, the vegan cousin has turned up ...

LurkingHusband · 21/02/2017 14:37

I couldn't work out from that article if Norway is our ally OR whether they are making sure that the UK doesn't get a better deal that Norway has.

Irrespective of that, we also need to bear in mind the complexity of ensuring none of the remaining 27 EU countries feels that the UK has come out better off after A50/Brexit. Which is an existential task for the EU (so not something we can discount).

After all, if the UK emerges in any way better off (which is the entire Brexit crie de couer) then what's the incentive for any other country to stay in ?

In fact the more Brexiteers tell us we'll be better off outside the EU, the less chance there is of it happening the way they like.

Damned irony eh ? Seems there might be a downside to basing our entire national sense of humour on it ....

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2017 14:39

Even if the language had been without racial epithets and the kids & their parents had been stating their wish not to have BME kids in the school,
I would have still been hurt by 3 solid years of being told that they didn't think I should be in their achool, their village or even "their" country.

So their freedom to express their wishes for a 100% white British population clashed with my right to happiness, or at least not to be made constantly miserable.
Such views may be ok to express politely in political debates, but not in everyday life, to individuals who would feel intimidated or upset.

It's not temporary hurt feelings, "special snowflake"
I still had occasional nightmares about school when I was in my forties ffs.
That was half a bloody century ago and it is why the agressively nationlist spike after the referendum caused me to immediately dump England in disgust. My anger surprised me.

I read that May is asking Brits with important EU networks to lobby hard for a good deal for the Uk.
I'm not important Grin but I tell everyone who asks why I left England about the racism I suffered at school and as a young adult.
I say the EU should give a good deal to British expats, to Scotland, NI & Gibralter, create an EU citizenship, but NOT give a special cake deal to May and her 3 Brexiteers. I've no loyalty to England.

I wonder how many other BME expats feel like me, or angry returning E27 citizens ?

Never mind old gimmers like me though
I wonder what effect the removal of PC constraints will have on young Muslims, or young Irish Catholics - what harvest will English cities reap in a few years ?

Palermonese · 21/02/2017 14:54

In 1980 - aged 14, I had a teacher at high school comment that during the war "we" (his word) were "fighting the eyeties" rather than teaching them.

In fact my memory is dealing more with teachers amusing comments than fellow pupils.

woman12345 · 21/02/2017 15:47

Going back to ron's comments about the HK immigration stamp.
England's unfettered snobbery, rabid racism and idiocy just make us look an absolute failed state, atm.

Hanif Kureishi said something about the English wanting Commonwealth citizens here to re enact the empire, wonder if May's tea party thought they could do that with EU citizens too.

Did Race Relations Act and Equal Opportunities act censor/ prevent racism and sexism ?
Did German Holocaust Denial protocol prevent/censor rabid anti semiticism, pre internet at least?
Women are not moral arbiters( and I resent ethical housework as much as the other stuff), disagree there red, functioning democracy, and judiciary are.

HashiAsLarry · 21/02/2017 16:31

cecile Sorry Hashi sad are we the same person? I feel like I share a lot of your views
Maybe its the paranoia, but maybe we are. You disappeared off the thread when I did. Are you also in full on AI flare up and only about able to read the words on this page but not formulate anything except an opinion on meatballs and turnips right now? Maybe you're the personality currently in charge of the clever part of my brain, because this personality isn't it Grin.

^
As if ordering a la carte wasn't going to be hard enough, the vegan cousin has turned up ...^ LH Grin

LurkingHusband · 21/02/2017 16:45

uk.businessinsider.com/nielsen-british-consumer-confidence-index-immigration-brexit-economy2017-2

LONDON — Brits are now far more worried about the state of the economy than they are about immigration, despite the movement of people being the defining issue of the Brexit vote.

According to the latest Nielsen Global Survey of Consumer Confidence and Spending Intentions, the economy is now viewed as the most important issue affecting confidence in Britain, surpassing both immigration and the threat of terrorism in the fourth quarter of 2016.

lalalonglegs · 21/02/2017 16:54

High winds and very heavy rain forecasts for Thursday in Copeland and Stoke. It's only going to be the most determined voters who brave the weather.

LurkingHusband · 21/02/2017 16:55

High winds and very heavy rain forecasts for Thursday in Copeland and Stoke

Isn't there some perceived wisdom about foul weather favouring the Tories ?

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2017 16:56

Big choc does your experience prove that censorship works either though? Those kids knew that they were not supposed to say those things due to the rules, which they ignored and break regardless. This is part of my point. They pushed against that and ignored it because they had no responsibility of their actions despite the rules.

The rules are too blunt an instrument alone. People do not respect them. Its about how you get people to respect those rules that underpin how effective they are.

It was only when those kids were held to account and told not to be dicks by society that they actually did change their behaviour. That has to be through social pressure as well as through the law. Otherwise the law ends up being challenged as 'wrong' even if its not.

This is partly why we have a wave of hate crime; people have lost respect for the law we do have and feel embolden enough to break them because they don't think people will report them or challenge their behaviour.

Free speech for society as a whole requires, society as a whole to believe in it, and to understand its weaknesses and dangers. Free speech is a responsibility as well as a right.

I think we need to be careful of the law, and yes I do think that we do need something but I also believe there are dangers in having laws which are too aggressive because the power of the state can abuse it and use it inappropriately too.

In terms of freedom of speech, society needs to step up more - and this includes whites who are very often blind to it - and say its wrong and tell people they are being dicks even if the law doesn't cover it, it still has consequences.

This is the missing thing right now. But the law can be a hindrance, if it is not respected by wider society as having value.

If you put a white English person in a situation where they are abused for their skin colour or nationality, it comes as one hell of a shock. Its not something they normally EVER come across. Its what breeds the arrogance. It is because of majority consensus. I think this is a huge part of the problem. Why did NI, Wales and Scot act differently? It was not just because of the difference in the political landscape in the regions. A huge part was due to identity.

I think you need to draw a line in saying that is ignorance and saying society must educate people in taking responsibility for their actions, rather than purely saying that is racism and it must be punished by the law as that just becomes draconian. I do think there are people who are just that blissfully naïve and protected from ever facing the effects of abuse their whole lives. They are the people who conform and fit in and don't ever stand out in anyway. They just don't get it, because they have never needed to or been exposed to it.

Instead what has happened post ref, is that people have been left off both needing to be held to account socially and via the rules alone. Ignorance has been legitimised as being ok socially and that in turn undermines respect for what laws there are from people who act out of hatred rather than ignorance.

The failure of society was the thing that led to your abuse to understand the power of words. Censorship did not protect you from those words. Censorship is supposed to stop things happening at all. Those actions still took place.

The law is only so much of a protection. It can always be changed. What matters is society and how they react to people who are dicks.

Hence why I am hesitate of censorship. I think it also lulls people into a false sense of security and into a mind set where it is not for them to stand up and make the point that things that are said are wrong. That's the job of the law and not them. It can allow people to abdicate their responsibility to protect freedom of speech - which includes challenging speech which may make people less willing to speak up and use their voice.

I hope that clarifies my point. I think its one that's difficult to explain well.

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lalalonglegs · 21/02/2017 16:57

Perhaps the ones most likely to have cars?

lalalonglegs · 21/02/2017 16:58

That was meant for lurking.

LurkingHusband · 21/02/2017 17:03

lalalonglegs

Maybe ?

There's also stats about when (General) Elections are called ...

However, I would be wary of using old data to predict the future - that's not gone well for anyone recently.

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2017 17:04

Traditionally Conservative voters are the ones who always turnout.

However Labour voters are younger and in theory, possibly more able to get out in poor weather in a constituency as large as Copeland.

Who is more motivated might be another way of thinking about it too. Anger is a good motivator. As is kicking sitting politician/the government.

Are people in Copeland pissed off enough at labour on a local level to vote conservative to get labour out? Its debateable.
Are people apathetic about Labour and not motived to vote for Corbyn? Yeah sure.
Are people pissed off at the government proposal to close their hospital? Hell yes.

In short, I'm not going to blame the weather on this occasion.

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LurkingHusband · 21/02/2017 17:09

Traditionally Conservative voters are the ones who always turnout

But traditionally Conservatives haven't been as thick as pigshit as the current crop, so clearly the times they are a changing (back)*

very obscure Alan Rickman film reference there Smile

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