Westministenders: Boris and The By-Elections

[RedToothBrush]

You lot post too fast!

A50 has made it out of the Commons without any amends. Its on its way to the Lords, but this week is half term, so in theory not much going on (in the UK at least). It hit the Lords on the 20th where it might not get such an easy ride. The Lords will not (and CAN NOT) stop brexit or frustrate it. But the numbers are in perhaps more favour of amendments if they choose to go that way, than the Commons. This would throw the bill back to the Commons. This is pretty reasonable.

In the meantime its 12 days to go until the Copeland and Stoke Central By-Elections.

Leave.Eu think UKIP have Stoke in the bag. They think there will be a 33% turnout. I think a turnout that high is the land of fantasy. Paul Nuttalls who was at Hillsborough is now a devout Stokie who has lived there all his life. Except of course he isn't.

Copeland looks like it will go Conservative. Its theirs to throw away. It would be the first victory for a sitting government in a by-election since 1983 if they make it. They intend to use a victory as another argument for a 'mandate'. But have they managed to drop a nuclear booboo?

One more Question. What are the chances of this thread making it to the 23rd?!

Well Corcory, I am happy to accept that you voted for a Brexit vision in which all the world would be equally welcomed - as every Brexit voter's personal vision has been deemed of equal worth and likeliness, I shall choose to believe in this particular one. And thus I thank you personally for easing the way for my friends and family to move here post-Brexit.

Wow Corcory I've just been reading the thread with my mouth opening wider and wider. Well done, for posting in the face of such hostility.

Genuine "health tourism" is primarily a non-EU phenomenon anyway.

EU workers resident in the UK are not health tourists. The NHS may fail to collect sums due from EU tourists, but it could collect those sums if it wanted to. After Brexit, it will be much harder to collect money for emergency treatment provided to EU citizens (unless the NHS starts to require credit cards or insurance docs before providing even emergency treatment) - so it's not inconceivable that the "health tourism" bill will rise.

Thinking about it, I've had health care in France and not been charged - and nor did the hospital charge the NHS as they didn't take full details from me (sprained my ankle falling down stairs in the metro and got taken to a "Publique assistance" hospital by a very cute gendarme I was much younger then and where my ankle was x-rayed and bound up).

It will be interesting to see what all the pensioner expats emigrants in Spain do about their healthcare

Very true misti
It's also noteworthy that people define health tourism in ways that suit them rather than how the NHS itself does, hence the max 280m being massively inflated to 1.8bn. Whilst ignoring the fact the NHS isn't good at claiming back what it should, though in that respect it really should get better at it given where we're heading. Though when it's all privatised it won't matter anyway.

Ah pretty you've just reminded me of course that some of that deliberate health tourism figure is those ex pats who are no longer entitled to NHS care but hide their actual residence status.

corcory - I know you've said the question was a simple leave or remain, but do you think your decision would have been influenced at all if you'd been told how much this exercise would cost? If a cost analysis had been done and the cost of Brexit made public, would there have been a point where you'd think it's not worth it?

Life is worth more than money.

Try to get that and you might get it.

Through can you explain Corcory's theory on immigration, please?

Thanks Thick and thin. My statement that the only thing we were asked to do in the referendum was to vote leave or stay was in response to Badders and Bear who chided me for not having examined my choices more closely. Apparently we 'can't defend our choice against the economic impact it will have' or we 'don't seem remotely concerned, or 'the utter contempt shown by leaver' were other phrases used by Badders.
I was only saying I really don't have to justify myself. We were only asked a very simple question. Who among us all had all the answers before the vote?

Whilst ignoring the fact the NHS isn't good at claiming back what it should, though in that respect it really should get better at it given where we're heading. Though when it's all privatised it won't matter anyway.

The NHS doesn't have the infrastructure to chase patient payments through the system, which is why it's bad at collecting money. I'm not aware of any cost-benefit analyses, but there's a good chance that employing accounts clerks and debt collectors to chase the money due would cost more than it raised.

prettybird most likely you were taken straight into the emergency room, and didn't think to take your insurance details to the admin office where all patients (or their relatives) are supposed to check in. Normally in French hospitals you get given a sheet of labels with your insurance details, which the healthcare staff then use to track your consumption of healthcare. If you didn't get any labels, no one tracked your treatment, hence no charge!

Life is worth more than money.

For sure, but (a) many leave voters are very uncomfortable with the idea that they might have to pay for Brexit personally and (b) this is small consolation to someone who loses their job because it has moved abroad.

who among us all had all the answers before the vote?

That's rather the point.

There were no answers to what life outside the EU would be.

7 months on there still aren't.

That's why Remainers voted as they did- there was no choice on offer.

Jumping off a cliff isn't a choice- it's a last resort and, unless you can quantify what pushed you over, it was a foolish decision.

God will provide

I was only saying I really don't have to justify myself. We were only asked a very simple question. Who among us all had all the answers before the vote?

This is a really curious post. You give the impression that you didn't really care that much about the outcome and that you didn't think deeply about it, yet here you are 6 months on arguing with people who really do care deeply about it and who have thought long and hard about the likely consequences.

It begs the obvious question as to why. I wouldn't spend hours in social media arguing about something I didn't care about and didn't know much about unless I was being paid for it!

No body is jumping of any F...ing cliff we are leaving a trading block to join the rest of the world!

I see you 'flounced' off to the pub thread Bear!!

boredofbrexit

God will provide

Has vague echoes of "God will know his own" ....

Cecile no I can't. I think Corcory would like the immigration across the world, not just eu.

Can you explain her? (his?) theory??

No, I think it is inexplicable which is why I asked her to clarify (assuming it is a her, sorry if you are a he Corcory)

It's a fundamental difference in attitudes that happens across all elections/votes. Some vote for what suits them and their ideals. Some vote with a wider view to the country or economy or just their village etc. some want to see the world burn. Some vote for a party or person they feel affiliated too. Etc etc. These habits are hard to break which makes them hard to defend too.

My df for instance has been a Tory all his life and never dreamed of voting another way until ukip came along. It always baffled me. He sometimes voted against his own interests. Or dms interests because of the party. When he loans about their manifestoed policies I'm always . You voted for that!!! He doesn't accept that though.

I sort of feel the same with many brexiteers. If you've voted for it, own the consequences as well as the victories.

corcorcy I didn't 'flounce' anywhere.

I'm not continuing discussions from one thread to another.

It is allowed to post on more than 1 thread at a time.

I'm not posting on one thread about getting answers on the other because that's like being in primary school.

I'll have conversations wherever I like but don't feel the need to 'snitch' wherever else I go.

I think we are jumping off a fucking cliff.

If you disagree, please tell us why you think this is a measured, calculated move where we have the upper hand with negiotiations with future trading partners.

No body is jumping of any F...ing cliff we are leaving a trading block to join the rest of the world!

Yet you don't understand the consequences of that (which for exporters is pretty close to a cliff, especially if negotiations go badly).

(You are welcome to prove me wrong regarding your understanding of customs procedures. But you won't even try).

Misti - did I say I didn't care? I watched all the debates, I read all I could in the media and I did my own research. But I'm sorry if I don't have every single answer for the likes of Bear. How many of us do when this is entirely new territory?
As for Bear's assertion that that there was 'no choice' just because we have never done this before, well that's just daft.
Were would we be today if everyone in the world thought like that! We are an inventive, exploring nation and I think we should embrace new ideas.

I think it's only 6 countries that aren't in some form of trading block. bigchoc I know can confirm or correct me. We're not joining the rest of the world at all

Bear - you accused leavers of 'flouncing off ' to the pub thread! So don't bother trying to get on your high horse with me.