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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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Thread gallery
19
LurkingHusband · 30/01/2017 16:39

There's been quite a few controversial ones over the years - mainly related to invites extended to those heading countries criticised for their record on human rights.

Robert Mugabe (when Peter Tatchell tried to arrest him) rings a bell.

lalalonglegs · 30/01/2017 16:42

I think Mugabe was in Brussels when Peter Tatchell Halo tried to arrest him. I don't know if he's had a state visit here before that, certainly not had one since. However, I believe the Ceaucescu's got the full royal knees up and I'm sure there have been others.

ManonLescaut · 30/01/2017 16:42

Yet we are being led by a populist gesture called the EU Referendum

Eggsackly.

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 16:43

Ian Dunt ‏*@IanDunt*
Yvette Cooper, actually shaking with rage: "All he can say is it wouldn't be our policy. Well that's not good enough...
This order was signed on Holocaust Memorial Day. For the sake of history, for heavens sake, have the guts to speak out."

Another Conservative whose name I missed paraphrase Kennedy saying "Those who ride on the back of tigers get eaten". Good Man

Bill Cash, I think is channelling Trump. He warns of the dangers of 9/11 and how we should remember them.

Dennis Skinner calls Trump a fascist outright.

John Redwood, goes all Trump too.

David Lammy says Johnson should be pushing the Geneva Convention. Johnson disagrees saying it was effectively OTT.

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RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 16:46

Nadhim Zahawi now speaking. He is asking Johnson to clarify if the US Embassies has now been updated.

In reply to Hwyel Williams (Plaid) Johnson says that May was "quick out the box" to condemn this policy.

Yes, Really.

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tiggytape · 30/01/2017 16:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheElementsSong · 30/01/2017 16:55

The thing to bear in mind is that May, Johnson et al are actually enjoying the support of a large proportion of the population Sad who, whilst not being in any way racist or xenophobic OK, believe that these measures will "keep us safe" or are against "backward" (actual word used on another thread) people who deserve it anyway, and in fact, would love such measures introduced here.

I would therefore suggest that May and friends know exactly what they are doing, in refusing to condemn what is happening.

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 16:55

Ian Dunt ‏**@IanDunt**
Boris having real difficulty here. Flustered, uncertain, relying on 'don't be hysterical' bluster when policy clearly warrants strong words.

Bob Neill Con
Says that our relationship is about our 'shared belief in the rule of law both national and international' and that the US have just failed in this.

Mike Gapes LAB calls her Theresa The Appeaser (and gets told off by the Speaker).

Ian Dunt ‏**@IanDunt**
David Winnick demands reassurance that Trump won't address parliament. "I'm sure mood of the chamber of Commons will be addressed"

That's a no then.

Con MP askes if he got clarification from the State Department or the Presidents Son In Law. Johnson dodges the question.

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RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 16:58

Ian Dunt ‏*@IanDunt*
Boris says it is distasteful to make comparisons with "the elected leader of a great democracy and 1930s tyrants". It's not like Boris ever makes World War Two comparisons.

Didn't he call the EU Hitler???

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RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:00

www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/dust-settles-after-boris-johnsons-comparison-of-eu-to-hitler/
Dust settles after Boris Johnson’s comparison of EU to Hitler

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/18/boris-johnson-world-war-two-punishment-beatings-brexit-francois-hollande
No 10 defends Boris Johnson over 'Brexit punishment beatings' quip

Oh yeah

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InformalRoman · 30/01/2017 17:00

From: www.householddivision.org.uk/state-visits

State visits are formal visits to the UK by Heads of State from overseas, with the aim of strengthening Britain's relationships with other countries.

There are usually two incoming State visits each year. Invitations are sent on the advice of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

The Queen acts as host to the visiting Head of State, who stays either at Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle or, occasionally, The Palace of Holyrood house in Edinburgh.

Visits normally begin with a ceremonial welcome attended by The Queen and other senior members of the Royal Family. If the guest is staying at Buckingham Palace, the welcome takes place on Horse Guards Parade.

After inspecting a guard of honour, the visiting President or Monarch then travels with The Queen in a Carriage Procession back to Buckingham Palace.

On the evening of the arrival day, the Head of State will attend a State Banquet in his or her honour.

So, give The Donald a room at the top of a turret in Windsor Castle with a narrow twisty staircase and once he's up there he's never going to get down again. That's probably why he's been growing that weird hair thing, so he can make some kind of escape ladder out of it.

Or stick him in Holyrood Palace and let the Scots deal with him.

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:02

Ben Howlett CON now makes a 1930s comparison

saying that populism is like the 1930s.

Johnson repeats that he thinks it is wrong to make those comparisons because it trivialises it.

Hmm

Johnson is getting pasted by everyone.

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RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:07

Robert Peston ‏*@Peston*
I am told by minister exemption from Trump's US travel ban for dual nationals will apply only to those with UK, Canada, NZ & Aus passports.

Ian Dunt ‏*@IanDunt*
What a funny little group, wonder what unites them.

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howabout · 30/01/2017 17:09

In answer to Ian Dunt ANZAC.

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:21

www.politico.com/story/2017/01/senate-democrats-filibuster-supreme-court-pick-234368
Senate Dems will filibuster Trump’s Supreme Court nominee

Important. Trump due to announce tomorrow evening (Wednesday early hours UK time).

Ian Dunt ‏**@IanDunt**

Another v.good Tory contribution - from Jack Berry. Demands what UK knew and when it knew it. Boris says they only got it when implemented.
This policy was widely trailed during campaign. Why was Britain unprepared? Why hadn't May team considered how it would affect UK citizens?
This suggests he mentioned refugee ban - May had no objections. But he didn't mention dual passport move.
So worst of all worlds: She was complicit and he didn't respect her enough to mention it.

Oh look C4 are reporting how she knew:
www.channel4.com/news/by/gary-gibbon/blogs/theresa-may-told-a-us-refugee-ban-was-coming?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Theresa May told a US refugee ban was coming
(((Dan Hodges))) ‏*@DPJHodges*

Sky News poll. 49% of people would support cancelling President Trump's state visit to the UK and 38% of people would oppose it.

Ian Dunt ‏**@IanDunt**
Boris celebrates British crack down on those who encourage "division between our communities". He's been defending Trump for over an hour.

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LurkingHusband · 30/01/2017 17:25

Another v.good Tory contribution - from Jack Berry. Demands what UK knew and when it knew it. Boris says they only got it when implemented.

So much for "special relationship" (although some divorcees may see something there ?).

Grenada ...

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:28

It is wrong to make comparisons with the 1930s as its wrong says Johnson.

Then:

Robert Peston ‏*@Peston*

.@BorisJohnson says Queen has welcomed Mugabe & Ceausescu on state visits, in defence of invitation to @realDonaldTrump . Errrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Hahahahahaha!

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TuckersBadLuck · 30/01/2017 17:29

Robert Peston @Peston
I am told by minister exemption from Trump's US travel ban for dual nationals will apply only to those with UK, Canada, NZ & Aus passports.

Ian Dunt ‏**@IanDunt**
What a funny little group, wonder what unites them.

howabout: In answer to Ian Dunt ANZAC.

ANZAC? Confused

LurkingHusband · 30/01/2017 17:29

It is wrong to make comparisons with the 1930s as its wrong says Johnson.

Of course it is.

We have digital watches.

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:31

Conservative MP askes public to write to the Foreign Office if they go to the US as a British Citizen and are asked where they are born so the FCO can put this to the Americans as being unacceptable and so they have a record of this happening.

Johnson says he assumes this was Obama administration. Well yes, but Johnson just gave the assurance that where British Nationals were born would not affect them if they go to the US!

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Headfullofdreams · 30/01/2017 17:34

My odious MP just sunk even lower in my estimation after his question. Didn't think it was possible.

RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:35

Jess Phillips LAB just asked if Appeaser May new about the refugee ban as it is appearing in the news that she did!

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RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:38

An MP just said that holocaust survivors were saying that this reminded them of the 1930s and then expanded point.

Johnson waffled a bit and then replied that he thought that we should stop deeming the holocaust!

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RedToothBrush · 30/01/2017 17:48

Ian Dunt ‏**@IanDunt**

Jonathan Reynolds (Lab): "What Trump has done is not just immoral, it is a threat to our national security."

Ian Dunt ‏**@IanDunt**
The May govt has managed to make Blair's relationship with Bush look respectable and influential.

Is it wrong to be enjoying this total car crash that Johnson is currently going in slow motion through?

Hello to those of you out to protest right now btw.

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BuntyFigglesworthSpiffington · 30/01/2017 17:51

'Is it wrong to be enjoying this total car crash that Johnson is currently going in slow motion through?'

No. It is right and it is proper.