The Brexit Arms. Please drink ( & post ) responsibly.

[surferjet]

'And Bunny has just summed up in two words how other opinions are meaningless/laughable and of no significance if they differ. How superior.'

Are you always this petulant? I'm laughing because to me ALL of Claig's threads and posts were the very definition of a Trump superfan's echo chamber. You can disagree and dramatically YUKK all you like.

'What subsequently happened was it was derailed and there was a full on goading/ambush from a very few ardent posters with a differing opinion.'

YES - that's what I saw too!

time Well said. You've summed up the way so many threads end up at the moment. It's tiresome and certainly puts people off trying to have a meaningful discussion.

Why an ambush? What does that mean?

Yes there seems to be a bit of one sided criticism here, in no way was it an ambush, but Claig started threads in the politics section which invites debate. Its an open site, no one owns a thread and its perfectly acceptable to join a thread and contest the argument, especially when one poster is so bombastic and prolific, it does it good to open it up a bit otherwise you end up with that thing that you so abhor in others of an "echo chamber". Or its OK to have threads that you like that are one sided but not from those who hold opposing views?

There was no ambush, just debate and critique of points, there was a fair level of backlash against this from one side in particular.

Quite an interesting blog piece from pre ref; very, very long though...

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/06/10/the-eu-locked-in-neoliberalism-and-locked-out-its-people-brexit-is-the-alternative/

The problem with that Mango, is that those leading Brexit are the arch neo liberals! The EU's attempts at retain some elements of socially democratic policies aren't good enough for them. Also if you look at Germany, and France and others they are far less neo liberal economies than our own. Blaming the EU is not accurate.

Good article Mango. Exactly the criticism I make of Yanis' position.

Howabout, the problem with the entire article is it ignores the fact that organised labour is still powerful in France and Germany, German firms have union members on the board.

Its criticism of the treatment of Greece leaves out much to be desired too.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/750582/Brexit-EU-Norway-Erna-Solberg-Theresa-May-negotiating-ability?utm_source=CRM&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Norway_predicts_hard_brexit&utm_campaign=WeeklyNews_Express

so according to this Norway thinks we will go for a hard brexit, Interesting.

Just scanning the article now Mango, looks good.

"The benefit of this rescaling is that it has allowed many European elites to push through neoliberal policies that would have encountered tremendous – possibly fatal – resistance had this been attempted at the national scale"

So many good points

No good points sadly Elf
Darth said it was rubbish, therefore it must be...

Really Mango, so the fact that both the French and Germans have far higher trade union membership and better negotiating strength than the UK has passed you by has it?

Or the fact that in Germany the Trade Unions have representation at board level of firms?

Or Higher rates of corporation tax and tax for rates of tax for the wealthy etc etc?

Or the fact that those leading Brexit here are staunch neo liberals themselves? Look at JRM and what he said about lowering health and saftey standards? What Boris said about TTIP?

How bout the fact that all of their Trade Unions aren't limited by the same laws that ours are or going to have more power taken away from them?

The fact is that the Brexit push has been led by the arch neo liberals so saying its a chance to rid ourselves of neo liberal economics, which I would agree with is pure fantasy, it also happens that we live in the most neo liberal of all EU states!

But yeah, just cause I don't agree when you post links to the LSE ( which is funny cause anything I've referenced is rubbished by you) you decide not to engage and make snidey remarks.

At least try and make an effort to debate eh?

*But yeah, just cause I don't agree when you post links to the LSE ( which is funny cause anything I've referenced is rubbished by you) you decide not to engage and make snidey remarks.

At least try and make an effort to debate eh?*

I don't recall 'rubbishing anything that's referenced by you' but hey-ho, & tbh I actually don't feel inclined towards debating at this moment.

When I used the BOE data on another thread for talking about low wages, you spouted anecdata at me.

I totally agree that the problems of the UK have been caused by neo liberalism, but the EU is far less neo liberal than the UK and the direction we are being steered in is to have more, not less, so the article, whilst correct about neo liberal economics is fanciful, brexit will not have this outcome.

Oh btw do you know which state has been the main driving force of the neo liberal economics in the EU? Take a guess.

I 'spouted anecdata'?!
Charming.

Well so is saying "anecdata" alert to something that has been very carefully discussed and the outcomes calculated and agreed on, by people on this very thread!

I've never made saracastic or snide remarks at you like you did to mine earlier, I've always played the debate, so "charming" yourself.

Thank you for posting that link mango. It's interesting to see the Lexiter argument laid out in some detail.

I am struggling with the premise that the EU is the cause or at least a major driver of neoliberalism, when even more rampant forms took hold outside the EU (notably in the US) over the same period.

I am also struggling with the notion that the EU is what prevents us from mitigating the effects of globalisation, when workers' protections are significantly better in other EU countries, and inequality lower, than in the UK. How can the EU be the problem here? And how is leaving likely to be the solution when the move to leave had been led by the most right wing group of politicians in country, who are quite open about wanting to reduce workers' rights

I was also suspicious of the claim in the article that the EU prevents renationalisation of railways and utilities. Having looked elsewhere it appears to be incorrect - here for example:

labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/10/02/sorry-nigel-nationalisation-is-not-against-eu-law/

I would love to believe that leaving the EU heralds a new era of social justice. But at the moment, I can't see a shred of evidence that this even is remotely likely.

I said "anecdata alert" because a favourite mn expression is 'anecdote does not equal anecdata' - and as I was about to post about something which was purely anecdote with no facts etc I wrote that at the start.

At no point did you enter my head when I wrote that post!

Even then you still said: "Darth said it was rubbish, therefore it must be... fwink"

Which is pretty condescending, you didn't answer any of the points that I made regarding the EU and neo liberalism, or the fact that it is fanciful to believe that something being led by ardent neo liberals will end up with less neo liberal policies.

Kaija, I looked at a fact check thing just after I read that article to see if the re-nationalisation thing was correct.

It isn't entirely correct now, but the model that the EU were originally pushing was watered down somewhat because of Angela Merkel.
Bizarrely, they're using the UK as an example of how part privatisation & competition of the railways works....

Darth I didn't think the article did ignore the fact that France and Germany are less far down the path of neo-liberal economics. It makes the point rather that the neo-liberals of France and Germany needed the EU as a Trojan horse in a way that Thatcherite Britain didn't, leading to the difference in approach from a sceptical UK right from the outset.

I found the discussion of the break down of the Keynesian social contract and the critique of the Left's inability to respond to globalisation interesting as well.

I didn't answer any of the points because I don't feel inclined to.

It does ignore France and Germany in the way it talks about trade unions, nationalisation and several other things.

Its almost like it was written by someone still fighting the 1975 referendum from a leftist position.

Fine Mango, then don't make sarcastic remarks and get all offended when someone challenges that then.

HTH.