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Brexit

The Brexit Arms. Please drink ( & post ) responsibly.

999 replies

surferjet · 08/12/2016 14:11

Wine
The Brexit Arms. Please drink ( & post ) responsibly.
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19
WrongTrouser · 27/12/2016 13:17

I hope you have all had a happy ChristmasXmas Smile

I thought there was a lot of truth in the article. Thanks for linking Mango

I am a quiet leaver with some of my friends and acquaintances. I think there are thousands out there. I have been getting a bit maudlin about it over the festivities - partly because of several Christmas cards of a "Hasn't 2016 been a terrible year politically for us all!" nature.

Well, no since you ask, not for me. The fallout has been v depressing, but I am happy with the referendum result and looking forward to leaving the EU. But they don't ask, they just assume, and it makes me really, really sad. Don't quite know why. Don't really know how to deal with it, as I sort of feel the need to come out of the closet. I have been in self protection mode up to now, as you can't unhear things and I don't want to lose any friends over this, but there comes a point when integrity seems more important. FFS it's six months later, it should have started to imping on people's consciousness that not everyone "like them" voted remain.

Sad
TheHoneyBadger · 27/12/2016 20:29

there is all that smug assumption that you, being an intelligent, liberal, pro human rights, perhaps well educated and well travelled person must think the same as them.

it is sad in many ways. it is a disconnect and it is revealing of the true nature of people, institutions, ideologies, tribes etc. i've also found it frightening how manipulable people are and how much group think/speak/believe there is in amongst those very people who see themselves as so educated and travelled and cultured and individual.

It is sad to see how very above all those assumed stupid, working class, ignorant and uneducated, brainwashed, too lazy to do night shifts for minimum wage that used to pay time and a half, old, etc people they actually believe they are.

the elitism of the very people who claimed to be supporters of the 'man on the street' or 'the working class' or 'those less fortunate' is starkly revealed. the detachment and total disconnect of the left that we sort of knew really but perhaps wanted to ignore because there was no political alternative for some of us is shown up so flagrantly that you cannot ignore it. to be honest for me any last vestiges of belief i may someday see myself politically represented are pretty much dead.

i think the worst of it is the utter contempt towards people that has been shown by the media and vocal remainers which reveals really the level of dominance they and their shared ideologies have had - the rage at finding themselves in the minority in something is of narcissistic proportions. they want to tear strips off of the peasants who dared to have a different view.

2016 hasn't been such a terrible year politically - it's been a terrible year politically for the majority of people in this country for years and years - it has been a terrible year for hegemonic rule though and those fucking idiots daring to go with what they think, want or believe politically rather than cow towing out of fear of being called stupid or racist or uneducated.

i don't necessarily hold out much hope that that will lead to huge change in the conditions but it does give me a glimmer of hope to be honest that we are not totally cowed and people are able to think outside the box of what breakfast tv tells them to think. all the tantruming in the world has not changed the outcome of the vote.

far worse things happened in 2016 than brexit or donald trump. people might want to open their eyes and get some perspective on what is going on in the world.

TheHoneyBadger · 27/12/2016 20:31

but what do i know - i don't use capital letters on the internet and i voted leave.

MangoMoon · 27/12/2016 20:45

i think the worst of it is the utter contempt towards people that has been shown by the media and vocal remainers which reveals really the level of dominance they and their shared ideologies have had - the rage at finding themselves in the minority in something is of narcissistic proportions. they want to tear strips off of the peasants who dared to have a different view.

Honey, agree with all of your post, but the above para resonates most of all.

Wrong, like you said on another thread I've lost the will now.
It's so bloody demoralising & draining to constantly be on the defensive - for a self proclaimed tolerant & liberally minded bunch, certain exceedingly vocal elements of the Remain voters are definitely lacking in self awareness.
It's apparently ok to ascribe a whole range of prejudice, attitudes & stereotypes to a group of people for no reason other than the way they decided to vote.

Le sigh.

Bearbehind · 27/12/2016 20:54

Seasons greetings all Xmas Smile

wrong, I'm intrigued by your comments above.

Why don't you tell your friends you voted Leave?

It makes absolutely no sense to me that you feel you need to 'come out of the closet'

You voted for the winning side.

Why can't you defend your position?

DarthPlagueis · 27/12/2016 21:01

"i think the worst of it is the utter contempt towards people that has been shown by the media and vocal remainers which reveals really the level of dominance they and their shared ideologies have had - the rage at finding themselves in the minority in something is of narcissistic proportions. they want to tear strips off of the peasants who dared to have a different view."

Well as the pro leave media is the largest section of the media, and their behaviour towards the remain camp has been utterly vile I'd disagree. I think this "win for the people" narrative is utter clap trap, and its peddling is mendacious.

WrongTrouser · 27/12/2016 21:08

Le sigh indeed.

I completely agree about the "group think/speak/believe". There is such a lack of questioning of some of the stuff trotted out, and a lack of enquiry or/ open-mindedness' or wish to understand or see the other point of view.

I find it so bewildering that some remainers just don't seem to comprehend that intelligent and politically aware people might have voted differently. Haven't they looked at the maps and seen that the leave vote is above 70% in some areas and considered that this must mean that you can't just assume everyone like you voted remain just because everyone you know where you live did (I suspect even that may not be true, people may just not be saying)?

And if they haven't even got to that level of attempting to understand how people voted, they presumably aren't thinking too hard about any of the other issues like why are people so unhappy with the EU, why isn't the way our country's going working out for so many people, why is the country so divided? Wierd and depressing.

Bearbehind · 27/12/2016 21:17

I find it so bewildering that some remainers just don't seem to comprehend that intelligent and politically aware people might have voted differently

But if you sit and nod whilst your Remainer friends bang on then what's going to change their mind's.

I genuinely don't understand why you don't make your choice clear to them and tell them why you made that decision.

DarthPlagueis · 27/12/2016 21:20

As previously stated Wrong it isn't that there is an issue with "the leave vote" but significant parts of it that led to the leave victory. There are so many different reasons why people were unhappy with the EU or chose to vote leave and not all of them bear scrutiny.

"There is such a lack of questioning of some of the stuff trotted out, and a lack of enquiry or/ open-mindedness' or wish to understand or see the other point of view. "

No I don't think that's the case, lots of people I have known to vote leave has given their reasons, its just that others might not hold those reasons to be as valid or the changes they would bring to be worth the risk of leaving.

Also the attitude of the leave campaign and their supporters following the ref has been antagonistic and abusive towards anyone who suggests that a significant % of the vote can't be ignored. This is deeply ironic especially after eurosceptics have had significant influence over our relationship with Europe since the 70s.

Redactio · 27/12/2016 21:22

Wrong:
Good luck with establishing your position, but come out and stick with it. The problem with dealing with people of the "liberal left" is their smug self righteousness.
Content yourself with the knowledge that the EU was (and is) a capitalist institution designed to support a new German empire.
.

DarthPlagueis · 27/12/2016 21:40

"The problem with dealing with people of the "liberal left" is their smug self righteousness. "

Ok, sweeping generalisation there, isn't that what you were complaining of earlier?

Dapplegrey1 · 27/12/2016 21:45

Darth - are you smallfox under a different name?

Bearbehind · 27/12/2016 21:47

dapple, I thought exactly the same.

DarthPlagueis · 27/12/2016 21:48

Nope never had another name.

I'm intrigued to this siege mentality though, people claiming the media were derogatory towards them, making sweeping generalisations, and then doing the same to the other side. I do feel that as the majority of the media is pro leave and lots of it rather aggressively so that this seige mentality is rather confusng.

TheHoneyBadger · 27/12/2016 22:15

the whole 'legitimised' media was incredibly pro remain. certainly the media that most with a leftward leaning have traditionally looked to and have now had to finally accept doesn't care a jolt about the working people it supposedly supports and has total contempt for them and their concerns.

not only pro remain in it's coverage of the referendum but in what it chose to cover in world affairs and what to ignore or underplay and how it chose to depict things like the migrant crisis and it's impact.

as to why people don't all choose to be open about their leave vote - i know people who got such hassle at work for being a leave voter and there were people posting threads on here about cutting contact with members of the family who voted to leave. why pretend there isn't a reason why many choose not to discuss it? quite clearly many did choose to keep it to themselves or the polls would have been more reliable.

WrongTrouser · 27/12/2016 22:17

But if you sit and nod whilst your Remainer friends bang on then what's going to change their mind's

Bear Firstly, I think that the fact you talk about me "defending my position" speaks volumes.

Secondly, I don't know where you've got this picture of me nodding away whilst my friends bang on from, but it is incorrect.

Thirdly, I'm sure me and you have had exactly this conversation before Grin (but perhaps not)

I'm not going to go all through it again, but I found the immediate aftermath of the referendum really horrible, and read/heard some comments about leavers that upset and horrified me.

I have had perfectly reasonable conversations with remain friends who have asked how I was intending to vote/voted. All fine. Happy to disagree. I am specifically talking about people who don't make any attempt to check where I might be coming from and just completely assume. To me, that suggests a certain attitude to leave voters, a view of them as completely "other", so it is totally impossible that anyone they know might be one. So I suppose I am wary of having a conversation, as I'm really not sure where it will lead. I am a bit of a believer in time healing, so thought I would just wait for tempers to cool etc (and to some extent, that has helped - I think a lot of the people petitioning for a second referendum on 24th June feel a bit silly for doing that now). But as I said, I'm getting past that now as it has been 6 months.

I suppose if you haven't been on the receiving end of being told you are thick, stupid, xenophobic, uneducated, duped, selfish, backward and inward looking etc etc, it might not be easy to understand the wish to protect yourself from hearing this sort of attitude from people you want to stay friends with. But probably not that difficult to understand if you put your mind to it.

Dapplegrey1 · 27/12/2016 22:17

Darth - but you are quite new to mumsnet, aren't you?

WrongTrouser · 27/12/2016 22:21

Darth I'm talking about my specific experiences, not making generalisations. Can you offer an alternative explanation of why someone would assume I voted remain which doesn't involve stereotyped assumptions about leave voters?

YourOtherLeft · 27/12/2016 22:24

TheHoneyBadger

"i don't necessarily hold out much hope that that will lead to huge change in the conditions but it does give me a glimmer of hope to be honest that we are not totally cowed and people are able to think outside the box of what breakfast tv tells them to think. all the tantruming in the world has not changed the outcome of the vote."

You only need look at the NHS too see how things are already getting worse thanks to Brexit. The Tories have been given carte blanche to impose deeper cuts across the board on the basis of the economy potentially tanking. Pro-Brexit think tank Change Britain today claimed a huge amount of money could be saved by cutting back on regulations, which I expect will include all sorts of regulations that protect consumers, workers, the environment etc. This is chaired by Gisela Stuart (Vote Leave LABOUR MP).

My main argument against leaving the EU was always that it would empower the right wing of politics. My feeling is this - there are two groups of people who voted Brexit; those who want a political revolution and those who want more of the same. At the moment, it looks like those who want more of the same are getting their way. More privatisation, more deregulation, more money for the rich at the expense of the poor, more hatred of immigrants etc. Those who wanted a political revolution were, in my opinion, very naïve and will be very disappointed. Same goes for Trump, as far as I can see.

There has been an awful lot of criticism of the "liberal urban elite", and they are treated as a single group. They are not. The truth is that the very angry, anti-Brexit left-of-centre members of this group don't actually hold much real political power. It is the neoliberal members of this "elite" who have caused all the problems as they have been in charge ever since Thatcher's era (despite what David Davis says, the "levers of the economy" have been in the hands of the CEOs and major shareholders of giant corporations for decades now, irrespective of EU membership). Of this group of neoliberals, many will be disappointed that globalisation is being threatened. But, and this is key, Brexit has not stopped the neoliberals being the leaders of The City or of the global corporations upon which we rely. These people are not going to experience a road to Damascus conversion and suddenly realise the errors of their ways. They will continue business as usual as much as possible, and indiscriminately pass any extra costs onto the "normal" people who voted both Leave and Remain.

The cold, hard truth is that there is no political appetite in the UK for genuine reform. Brexit was not a clarion-call for the revolutionaries and was not a signal that "the people" have had enough. It is to the advantage of certain political groups to claim either or both of these things, but the Opinion Polls show such an overwhelming lead for the Tories that even a General Election upset along the lines of Brexit and Trump wouldn't stop a Tory win. Too many people want what the Tories are offering, which is essentially rebranded neoliberalism.

I think a big part of the negative fallout from Brexit, and the inability of the various groups to reconcile the reality with the false positions presented by both campaigns, comes from the fact that the Remainers treat the Leavers as a single group with a certain set of stereotypical traits and the Leavers treat the Remainers with exactly the same level of contempt. Actually, there are sub-groups within each opposing Brexit camp that have more in common with their opposite number than they do with other sub-groups in their own camp. That is why some people voted Leave to protect the NHS whilst others voted Remain to protect the NHS, and some voted Leave to get out of TTIP whilst some voted Remain to avoid a UK version of TTIP that would be even worse for the citizens. Conversely, Cameron led the campaign for Remain from a position of being TTIP's biggest supporter and Boris campaigned for Leave from a position of being a supporter of all the ideas contained within TTIP. May has hardly been a friend of immigration over the years and has campaigned hard against the European Human Rights Act, but was a Remainer. Or so it is said!

Ultimately, everything comes down to two failures. Firstly, the "liberal urban elite" has failed to do what it promised and create a fair society through market forces. The neoliberals started it and the left-of-centre Blairites failed to address the failure when they had the chance. That is why many working class people are justifiably angry. Secondly, the working class abandoned left-of-centre politics just when it needed it most. Unfortunately, there are just too many working-class voters who would rather vote Tory / UKIP or abstain or support Corbyn than vote for a moderate left-of-centre option. That is why many of the (left-of-centre) "liberal urban elite" are justifiably angry. The only groups throwing tantrums are the wealthy neoliberals, as their lives may become slightly less luxurious, and those on the hard right, who are upset that the Remainers have the temerity to challenge their bigoted political agenda.

Where will all this anger lead us? Nowhere good. The current political direction is to the right, and the country voting Brexit has not changed that direction. In my mind, the Brexit result is neither the cause of, nor the solution to, our country's problems, but rather a symptom of them.

DarthPlagueis · 27/12/2016 22:27

I lurked a long time before signing up dapple, mainly though being brought here by the notthetalk site which was a refuge after the Guardian Talk sites were closed.

"the whole 'legitimised' media was incredibly pro remain. certainly the media that most with a leftward leaning have traditionally looked to and have now had to finally accept doesn't care a jolt about the working people it supposedly supports and has total contempt for them and their concerns"

See again, I'll disagree here, how are the Mail, Express, Telegraph, not legitimate? Even the Sunday Times was pro leave. As a left leaning person I certainly don't think the concerns of working people are given contempt or that they are treated so. I'd actually say that giving people the simple answers and empty promises is much more contemptuous.

WrongTrouser · 27/12/2016 22:28

Also Darth if you are confused about why people talk about the press maligning leavers, try looking at the Guardian (said between gritted teeth)

Lovely article by Matthew d'Ancona yesterday - basically putting leave voters and the far/alt right in one (deplorable) basket.

I suppose I am more effected by what the Guardian and what was the Independent before it turned into a comic say, because they are the papers which I used to have some faith in.

DarthPlagueis · 27/12/2016 22:30

I totally agree with that You. I think in both the UK and the States those desperate for change have been used.

Brexit will most likely not bring what the majority of voters wanted, on my other talkboard there are or were lots of out at all costs people. I'm fairly sure they are a minority.

DarthPlagueis · 27/12/2016 22:32

Wrong, I read a range of papers and tht article was wrong to lump everyone together.

but its no different from what the others do about "liberals"

MangoMoon · 27/12/2016 22:41

Darth, were you around mn immediately after the ref result?

Nasty, bigoted, offensive and divisive in the extreme.

Leave voters were explicitly stereotyped as:
Old, stupid, thick, bigoted, racist, xenophobes, small minded, little Englanders, empire lovers, uneducated etc etc

We were hounded & vilified constantly - every other poster demanding Answers!
and getting a shit on when we didn't give the 'right' Answer!

It was personal & it was shit.
It still happens now on the odd random thread (although more dismissively & airily dispensed rather than the viciousness of before).