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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
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13
Unicornsarelovely · 15/11/2016 21:08

I agree unworthy, but that is due to decisions taken by our government on how to deal with low pay. They are not EU mandated but have been conveniently blamed on the EU Fom clauses.

MagikarpetRide · 15/11/2016 21:12

Surely the ones 'taking' our jobs are paying our benefits largely, given en masse we know they pay more in than they take out.

amaravatti · 15/11/2016 21:14

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/if-youre-not-about-mob-rule-nigel-dont-call-out-your-mob/

Nicely written.
This is the bottom line with both of them,
What are they trying to provoke and what have they got planned next.

merrymouse · 15/11/2016 21:24

I dont agree with the sentiment but that is entirely possible isn't it?

It's not clear - other arguments are that there isn't a set number of jobs available; A growing economy needs more workers; Many immigrants do jobs that are difficult to fill.

Immigrants also spend money.

TheBathroomSink · 15/11/2016 21:55

Guy Verhofstadt is trolling Boris Johnson:
@guyverhofstadt
Can't wait to negotiate with @BorisJohnson, so that I can read him Article 3 of the Treaty of Rome t.co/UOUfVjMb3Z #Brexit t.co/UlD42v0v9w

Luffsnigeandtrump · 15/11/2016 22:02

Surprised that Leave won given the sheer numbers on here who seem to hate and despise the UK

TheElementsSong · 15/11/2016 22:11

sheer numbers on here who seem to hate and despise the UK

I look forward to some examples of this to properly further this interesting line of inquiry.

TheElementsSong · 15/11/2016 22:16

Meanwhile, BBC news is reporting positively on Google's creation of many jobs here. So that's good news. (Although in the interview Google also made sounds in support of keeping the borders open).

Motheroffourdragons · 15/11/2016 22:33

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Unicornsarelovely · 16/11/2016 06:52

It's because we don't appear to love nige and trump mother. If we really loved our country we'd be happy for them (even though of course Nigel isn't in parliament, let alone government) to dictate what is best for us.

MagikarpetRide · 16/11/2016 07:08

You aren't allowed to love the UK and also see any benefit in working with the EU anymore don't you know? Hmm

mathanxiety · 16/11/2016 07:49

Boredofbrexit Tue 15-Nov-16 06:38:51
But isn't that Irelands place on the world stage too? Why stop at Europe? We will always be a part of Europe. Leavers would just prefer to be freed from the shackles of membership of the EU. To leavers the EU and Europe are not synonymous

No, Ireland does not have an imperial past and imperial mythology to affect decision making or to inform a vision of an international future with no association with European alliances. The UK does, and moreover, the imperial myth refers to territories thousands of miles from Europe (an empire on which the sun never set). The alleged 'shackles of EU membership' is a myth that contrasts membership on equal terms with European countries full of wops and dagos with former imperial glory, isn't it?

In its place, Ireland actually has a very Europe-oriented myth, if you can call it that. Historically, Catholic Ireland has ties to Rome that date back to the conversion to Christianity by St Patrick. Ireland has the monks of the Dark Ages to look to, who brought Latin and writing to monasteries they founded in Germany and Italy, and the adherence to Roman Catholicism despite the Reformation, followed by emigration of native Irish aristocracy to Spain and France in the upheavals and conquest of the Plantation period and the following centuries (the Wild Geese) and also the influence of continental European universities like Louvain where wealthy Irish families sent their sons to be educated in spite of laws against sending children abroad for education in the Penal years. Spain and France and French speaking Belgium were always considered part of the Irish heritage. Latin was taught in hedge schools.

The History syllabus for secondary students (all students to Junior Cert and all history students for the Leaving Cert) is
1 - Early Modern Ireland
2 - Early Modern Europe and the wider world
3 - Later Modern Ireland
4 - Later Modern Europe and the wider world

Courses are survey courses - not a series of unrelated topics.

Syllabus
Scroll down to page 12 for an outline of the syllabus.
Scroll to page 18 (onwards) for a more detailed breakdown of topics.

Example of one section in 'Early Modern Europe and the wider world' -
'Topic 2: Religion and power: politics in the later 16th century, 1567-1609'
An example of topics in the area of 'Politics and Administration':
Spain under Philip II.
Revolt of the Netherlands.
The French Wars of Religion.
Elizabethan England.
The rise of Muscovy.
Competition for Empire in the West.
The Holy Roman Empire under Rudolf II.

Area of 'Society and Economy':
Economic crises: inflation, causes and consequences.
Demographic trends; shifting balance of trade.
Techniques of land use.
Structure of family; patterns of inheritance.

Area of 'Culture, Religion and Science'
The Catholic offensive; close of Council of Trent.
International Calvinism; rise of toleration;
Patriarchate of Moscow;
Elizabethan Anglicanism.
Neoclassicism; printing and popular literature.
Astronomy.

It is quite wide ranging and focuses on Europe. British history per se is not studied, but placed in the wider European context or placed in the context of domination of Ireland and efforts to end it.

Look at page 39 for
'Topic 6: Government, economy and society in the Republic of Ireland, 1949-1989'

History syllabuses are often a subliminal message about the present.

Ireland's interest in the world stage extends only to what is possible in the here and now, informed by what once was a strong sentimental attachment to the 'Catholic cause' on the continent, and by what is now a strong, practical impulse to stay connected to the single market. Ireland does not have any alternative and Ireland does not want one. There is little or no angst associated with Ireland's relationship with the EU apart from the fallout from the banking scandal, but even that is blamed on corrupt native politicians and criminal financier class.

Membership of the EEC after a fundamentally transformative period in Ireland's history (from the T. K. Whitaker/Dept of Finance reforms onwards, plus the reforms that Donagh O'Malley set in motion in education) that laid the groundwork for membership have meant enormous leaps forward in every aspect of Irish life. People remember the misery of high levels of youth emigration, grinding rural and urban poverty, and social stagnation, and they appreciate the Dutch weirdos who rock up to convert the little run down cottages on the hillsides and start up goat cheese dairies, as well as the motorways and the fact that someone with a degree in languages and international marketing from a former regional tech can get a job in Berlin or Antwerp or Marseilles and not have to head off to Birmingham at age 18 to work at digging holes for sewers.

TheBathroomSink · 16/11/2016 07:53

Meh. I give that about 1/10 as an effort. Must try harder.

Anyway. Red you mentioned about people boasting about twitter followers the other day and Brian Silvester, but you couldn't understand what started it, well it turns out he decided it would be a good idea to randomly boast that he had a load more followers than his opponent.

It's finally been picked up by the local paper here although it does neglect to mention his convictions for being a slumlord.

usuallydormant · 16/11/2016 08:21

Don't forget all those poems in Irish classes math - there was a poetic tradition of a man falling asleep somewhere and having a dream of the French or Spanish coming to rescue Ireland from the evil empire Grin. We even managed to get the French to come to Ireland to fight in 1798 - it didn't work out very well.... My family like to think they have Spanish blood as in their part of the country they harbored Spanish Armada sailors from the English. Hmm

All this is to show that our historical memories are filled with good memories of Europe, while in contrast the UK (or I guess mainly England) has a long history of wars against the French and Spanish. And of course, Germans in living history. It must have some impact on negative attitudes today towards the EU and I think for many British, they are not interested in being part of Europe culturally either. They don't see that they have much in common and look to the US instead.

I believe this is a big reason why the referendum was always going to be an uphill battle - in countries a bit more used to referendums, we know that they are often used as a protest vote against the government and that that you can't expect people to vote rationally on complex matters such as international treaties. They are going to go with their gut feeling. And if that gut feeling is anti Europe, that's how they will vote regardless of the rational arguments.

Interesting that Farage is so keen on Trump but not Marine Le Pen who is cut from exactly the same cloth and basically shares his EU objectives.

mathanxiety · 16/11/2016 08:32

I suspect that when I am old and infirm and can't even remember the name of my cat I will still remember those poems from Irish class Smile

I suspect Scotland has a greater sense of affinity to Europe than England's too.

I wonder if there is buried deep down in the English psyche a sort of very misplaced paternalistic pride in the American achievement? The 'special relationship' sometimes looks like the UK coming across its long lost cousin the USA, and pointing out to it its resemblance to all the old great aunts and grand uncles whom the second cousin (now thrice removed) never knew and has no interest in.

It's a huge pity that among the other amateurishness that was part of the referendum, the UK government apparently never bothered to look at the referendum experience of other countries. Ireland's referendum commission would have given a good idea of possible pitfalls to the referendum idea and how to avoid them.

BoredOfBrexit · 16/11/2016 08:39

Many many Scots identify with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand; what emigration there was involved these places. There was a feeling that the US was land of our fathers whereas Europe was somewhere to bum round on your gap year.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/11/2016 08:47

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mathanxiety · 16/11/2016 08:54

I don't think you are looking back far enough. The royal links between Scotland and France are perhaps not mentioned much in Scottish history classes (?), but they are there (the Auld Alliance). There is also the link to Calvinism (John Knox for example) and of course in the Scottish legal system.

mathanxiety · 16/11/2016 08:55

(That was in response to Bored)

LurkingHusband · 16/11/2016 09:02

I suspect Scotland has a greater sense of affinity to Europe than England's too.

Ah, the auld alliance. Which is probably one of the reasons England has never been quite sure about "Europe" ... that said, the French (well Parisians) are well aware of the difference between an English accent, and a Scottish accent. When I lived there (student) it was hard for the English students to speak French - their accent seemed to trigger a "let's speak English" mode. But there was a Scottish girl who never had an issue - they always replied in French (I am told the French ear likes French in a Scottish accent ?).

Mary Queen of Scots spoke French as her mother tongue.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/11/2016 09:04

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PattyPenguin · 16/11/2016 09:05

Mind you, Victoria's mother tongue was German, and that's more recent.

LurkingHusband · 16/11/2016 09:08

I wonder if there is buried deep down in the English psyche a sort of very misplaced paternalistic pride in the American achievement?

A cracking story would be to imagine that the American Revolution was actually stage-managed by a bunch of savants (Benjamin Franklin alone qualifies) who were tasked in some Freemasonary way (oh, look, Benjamin Franklin again !) to protect some sort of "noble power" which was under threat in Europe. And the entire history of the US has been as a programme to keep the Enlightenment alive as Europe fell into decay. The story arc could end with WW2, and the American "project" coming up trumps (sorry Hmm) and rescuing Europe. You could probably throw in some sort of psuedo-religious tosh for the Dan Brown fans.

(A sort of "Foundation trilogy" on Earth, for any Asimov fans Smile).

In fact, I might just knock up a pitch - anyone have Netflix email ?

whatwouldrondo · 16/11/2016 09:12

Thinking about it I managed to go through school and university, where I studied History, without studying any European history (aside from crap romantic novels) Even at university where I studied a Latin American module, a whole term of that was basically Pirates of the Caribbean. So yes I grew up with a very English, at the heart of the Empire, focused perspective. We did travel to France for a couple of holidays but I remember a car packed with tins of beans with sausages and mostly it was the exotic destinations of the west, as in Wales......

My daughter's though are very different, not just because they spent a chunk of their childhood in another culture entirely. They have travelled all over Europe as a family, been on exchange visits to France and Germany and two other study trips to Austria and Berlin, spent more than one summer interailing, and have close friends who they visited on Erasmus years in Eastern Europe. There is a strong foundation to their feeling of being European which is why they feel so betrayed by this vote.

Peaceandconnection · 16/11/2016 09:22

mathanxiety Wed 16-Nov-16 07:49:44 and usuallydormant Wed 16-Nov-16 08:21:16 Thanks for those posts, they are very interesting and informative and I very much believe that these myths resonate strongly with people. I recommend reading or watching Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth", especially the episode 2: The Message of the Myth. With this in mind the tabloids are exploiting these deep sentiments based on historical myths and notions of good versus evil and reinforcing them to convey their own twisted politics.

LurkingHusband I am interested in what you wrote about Scottish people being better able to learn French or speak French fluently without a heavy accent. I have noticed that in language courses at the University the English have the most outrageous accents to begin with (some do soften over time) when speaking pretty much any foreign language, why is this do you think? (apologies not intending to be offensive wrt accents just an objective observation).

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