What do remainers think of this!

[Corcory]

6 MPs, members of the commons select committee, paid a visit to Sports Direct's warehouse in Derbyshire the other day.
It is build in an ex mining area specifically to provide work for a community badly needing employment opportunities.
When the MPs were shown around the warehouse they had the opportunity to speak to many of the employees there. None of them were British all of them were Eastern European. Some didn't even speak English. So could easily be duped into taking reduced wages and a reduction in their employment rights! No unions are allowed there.
The taxi driver who took the MPs there told them there are never any jobs advertised around here from the warehouse and that people from the area would love jobs there - well provided the paid the proper wages and gave full employment rights!

How do you think changing the immigration policy of the UK without leaving the EU would work to make the situation less discriminatory?

Because it's a choice that Westminster has made now. Despite that, they still haven't managed to reduce the numbers of non-EU migrants to below that of EU ones.

Far from being 'open for business' not being to do with migrants - if you make it clear as Theresa May has done, that certain categories are not welcome, they are not going to go home and enthuse about the country - they are going to tell family and friends that the country is unwelcome and encourage them to take their entrepreneurship elsewhere.

Or shall we remember Priti Patel's promises to the Indian Curry houses that they would be able to bring in chefs from the sub-continent more easily without the EU? There is nothing to stop them granting visas for this group of people now. The numbers involved are going to be relatively modest. Indeed, Theresa May might well have to offer more Indian visas if she wants more Trade.

Donostia - I'm glad to hear you are having a good life in another country, that's nice for you. I certainly don't think the UK is some sort of paradise, why would I? And I have lived in other countries as it happens. That does not preclude me from wanting the best I can get for the UK.
Peregrina - So we have to be 'open for business' for all migrants in case they say not nice things about us to their friend and relatives!!! Loads of countries have rules and regulations with regard to immigration and work and I'm sure people don't go around saying nasty things about those countries all the time!
Captain - Thank goodness someone has come on here who has some first hand knowledge about Shirebrook and confirmed what I am saying is true. No I'm not from the area but I have friends who are and no matter how many times I say things they all just come back chanting anecdotal, anecdotal, because if there hasn't been an in depth study about anything then of course it can't be true!

Corcory " their agents in India continue to tell her that Indian students are put off coming to the UK by the tightening of immigration controls.

“They tell us the perception that Indian students are not welcome in the UK is still strong and we are having to work hard to get over that.”

www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20160302191444908

It is incredibly difficult to bring even the most highly skilled people from outside the EU. Perhaps this will change, but May's reign as Home Secretary led to companies like my employer - which relies on highly skilled researchers from around the world - relocating new R&D investment outside the UK.

Those jobs and that investment are not coming back. You reap what you sow.

Is there such a thing as a leaver on here who has actually worked for a large exporter, or had any experience of trade?

Misti, as I've said I think there should be more targeted migration specifically for industries and skills we need so it shouldn't then matter where in the world they come from so that should surely help your company's situation.

But corcory that is not what is happening, is it? The person who was in çharge of immigration policy when my employer decided to relocate new R&D investment outside the UK is now prime minister, and is doubling down on those very policies.

What is more, many of our scientists come from the EU. If they no longer want to come, then technical development may have to relocate too. You cannot run cutting edge research laboratories unless you can recruit qualified candidates.

Small anecdote, to demonstrate how far this ridiculous fear of foreigners has gone. I have a close friend in South Africa who works for her government's revenue department, and who is closely involved with the OECD as a government representative on corporate tax matters. (Her job is making sure big companies pay their dues). When working, she travels on a government passport. She told me last week that she will no longer seek to travel to the UK, certainly not on her personal passport and no longer even on her government passport, because obtaining a visa to enter the UK even in her official capacity has become so difficult. In contrast, it is simple for her to obtain a Schenghen visa for official business, and relatively straightforward for her to get a tourist visa.

Please, just explain to me - what purpose does this ludicrous attitude towards foreigners serve?

I cannot understand Theresa May's attitude - it has tipped over into pure blind prejudice. So even if she does decide that we need to cosy up to India and South Africa, people won't forget. After all, if they can turn against you once, then decide to be more accommodating, what would stop them turning again? The damage to the goodwill of this country is immense.

Another of those stupid ideas re visa etc...
DH works for a company that manufactured a product here, said product is then shipped all over the world.
To use said product, people need to be trained.
Well the Uk is refusing again and again to give any visa for people to come over, trained on how to use the product and therefore creates a barrier on selling said product.

Note: the visa needs to be for about a week, not even a month, let alone a year.
All people coming are working in their own country and therefore not a threat in any shape or form to 'natiuve' british and the NHS/jobs/benefits.....

The way around that is ... to send people there to do the training (assuming that the country on the other side is happy to welcome them....) or for have someone in that part of the world representing the company, aka ensuring that someone is becoming a British immigrant in another country. See the irony there???

Of course, yoou can also not sell the product and make people redundant instead.

I can see that what is happening now is far from idea in the way of visas for people coming from other parts of the world. That is why I want to see changes in the system and a complete overhaul. So that everyone, from where ever they come including the EU can come in order to fill the skilled jobs we need doing. I feel the visa system at the moment is skewed against workers from non EU countries because we have FOM and rely too heavily on people from the EU. That then means we have workers coming that we don't really need and also have much less control over criminals and other undesirables from the EU.

And the reciprocal thing,,,?

Presumably you can provide figures for the criminals and undesirables coming from the EU?

Marcia, I have already said I can't see any reason why UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK can't stay where they are. As for continued free movement well obviously that would change. We would still be able to go on holiday etc. and hopefully students would be able to study abroad but I can see there being barriers for people who are unskilled but want to go and live in EU countries.
Why on earth should I produce figures for criminals? I'm an ordinary mum on a mumsnet thread! there have been plenty of reports of crimes committed by EU citizens in the UK who already had a criminal record in their own country. Look at the Pub thread there are lots of links listed there.

even if she does decide that we need to cosy up to India and South Africa, people won't forget. After all, if they can turn against you once, then decide to be more accommodating, what would stop them turning again?

Exactly this. Her approach and actions are poisonous and dangerous.

Corcory, your constant sliding away from giving any kind of concrete meaningful evidence for your assertions gets less and less impressive. And the 'just a mum'/'Oh I don't have that much time to spend on here'
schtick is wearing.

Why do you think it's OK, on a thread full of serious debate and well-backed-up points, to make an assertion about how an end to FOM would be a good thing because we'd have fewer 'criminals and other undesirables from the EU', without saying/knowing what the numbers of these EU undesirables are?

Here's a study by the LSE showing that crime has fallen significantly in areas of mass immigration from eastern Europe.

And here's one from the National Association of Chief Police Officers showing that, despite rising immigration, crime levels in the UK continue to fall.

Not that hard to find, and I too am an ordinary person on a Mumsnet thread, who also has other demands on their time.

Leavers who assert that they want out of the EU because they want to support migration from the rest of the world instead, are using this argument so as not to come across as xenophobic IMO.

and also have much less control over criminals and other undesirables from the EU.

This statement demonises EU citizens who work in the UK, and tbh sounds like a Daily Mail headline.

Apart from the fact that overall EU citizens working in the UK are net contributors, and part of Hammond's Brexit black hole is due to the expected drop in their number.

But hey let's embrace poverty, loss of worldwide political influence and a more intolerant and less open way of being, because at least now our streets and businesses will be populated by wholesome, honest British people only.

YAY.

But Scare, I don't want only immigrants to come from the rest of the world, I want them to come from the whole of the world including the EU.
I'm just sooo xenophobic! Ye right.
I want more control over who comes into this country but of course I can't say that because it could be a Daily Mail headline!
Then you contradict yourself by suggesting leavers want a Britain 'populated by wholesome, honest British people only' where did any of us ever say that?
As for 'loss of worldwide political influence' why would that be?
'and a more intolerant and less open way of being' again what bit of I want everyone to have an equal right to come here no matter where in the world they come from do I say that?

Your views to me seem very typical of a left wing ideology where everyone with any more centralist or right wing view is xenophobic and every thing we say, no matter how 'reasonable' is slatted as being somehow hiding some other weird ideas of intolerance. Why?

I am not left wing, not that it would matter if I were. That's your attempt to shut me down.

and also have much less control over criminals and other undesirables from the EU. is a demonising Daily Mail type of headline - are you going to substantiate it or back it up with figures?

About half of all migration to this country IS from outside the EU.

I don't accept that unskilled labour shouldn't come here. Overall EU migration is economically beneficial, and the government needs to sort out companies like Sports Direct that do not pay enough etc...

All your comments about the number of Eastern European people there are in some parts of the UK do sound xenophobic yes. But especially your comment about EU criminals. All criminals should be prosecuted but EU citizens should not be demonised in this regard.

So I don't think you make reasonable points apart from the one concerning the government's needs to regulate companies better and to get rid of zero hours contracts (which will probably become an EU directive).

An interesting article about immigration and how to reduce net immigration...
theconversation.com/britains-obsession-with-net-migration-makes-it-a-global-anomaly-67093?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox#link_time=1480019177

In effect, to reduce immigration, yu as need first to reduce the shortage of skills, higher skills and lower skills.
And you need to make the UK less attractive by making not as good economically.

The issue here is that a lot of the immigration to the UK is One that should be welcomed because otherwise we would be in the shit basically. From doctors, engineers to fruit pickers.
Of course you can say that you would get to choose who is coming. But of the same number is still coming in was it worth to take such a risk to get the same result?
It's only worth if you think that the number of immigrants would reduce dramatically which I'm not convinced at all it will.....

As for the awful criminals coming over, do yu have any idea of the number of people it represent? I have no idea.
Just as I have no idea of many criminals are coming to the UK from outside the EU. Is there not a higher risk from criminals from outside the UK, such as people who are radical extremists (whatever the religion), terrorists or people coming to recruit?

Actually a very quick search shows that there are only 50 known criminals that have immigrated to the uk from other EU countries.

50 over 80.000 British people who are currently in jail. It looks like a very small drop in the ocean doesn't it?

Scare - So my suggestion that your suggestion that I am xenophobic is left wing is my attempt to 'shut you down'! what exactly were you trying to do?
I make genuine comments about how I feel yet time and again I get this xenophobia comments. Which I certainly am not. I have Poles married into my family that I love to bits. The fact that I don't like one particular nationality being favoured of any other when employment or anything else is concerned has absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia in fact quite the contrary.

Marie - I have never said I want to reduce the number of migrants only that we shouldn't have FOM from the EU and that everyone should have an equal chance of being accepted here. Your figures completely baffle me. Where on earth do you get the figure of 50 EU nationals. There are about 4.600 EU nationals currently in our prisons! And that is only taking account of the people who have been caught and successfully prosecuted.

Well corcory we can both agree that the other one was trying to do the shutting down. My comments were made partly because there are some high profile leavers who have used the non EU arguments as their overt reasoning, but actually their motivation was a different one. Apologies if in fact this is not the case for you, but I would still question the way your came across, or your comment about EU criminals.

A lot of Poles in one particular industry could be due to a lot of factors but IMO leaving the EU is not the answer or good for this country, the EU, or even the world at this point in time.

The way your post came across

But Serioulsy even 4500 people over 80.000 is still a very very small number. Just as 4500 is a very very small number compare to the number of immigrant EVERY year coming to the uk.

I get your point that everyone will have the same chance. But that wasn't my point. My point was that the numbers will be the same because the uk needs these immigrants to function. Regardless of where they are coming from.
What sort of advantages do you think we will have if we can choose better where they are coming from?

The other point being of course that the uk has just taken a VERY big risk by going out of the EU just to be able to chose where its immigrants are coming from. It would need to very big advantage for it to be worth the risk iyswim.

That plus the fact that I'm not sure that the UK will have access to the information for other European police forces so how are we going to know of someone who is coming from an EU country is a criminal when they apply for a visa? Atm the information is shared. I doubt it will once we are out? I don't know...

Marie - I don't think we get that much info from the EU with regard to criminals and terrorists it is us that has most of the intelligence and information so it would be very unlikely that the rest of the EU would want to cut their noses off to spite their faces.
At least we can check people as they come in.
I also don't think immigration is the only reason that people voted to leave the EU.