Has anyone else noticed a change in mood this week, and not a positive one?

[Bearbehind]

Since the referendum it seems to me that, unless you go looking for news about it, for some reason it's not been the headline news it should be.

I think those that have been following it thought the Tory party conference would at least put to rest some concerns but it's had the opposite affect.

Last night ITV news led with a story about how, although the predictions of doom hadn't materialised, we haven't actually left yet.

It went on to talk about the tanking pound and Hollande saying the UK must pay for Brexit.

Even the Daily mail seems to be a bit less gung ho about everything.

Several people I spoke to last week were very down about it all and they're not people I'd even discussed Brexit with before.

Is the media making a conscious effort to get people to see it isn't all rosy or is it just me thinking that's the case?

Sadly I'm not feeling any more optimistic because it's not like they're making announcements to gauge opinion.

They make an announcement that they haven't thought through properly, it causes uproar and then they go, oh fuck, that won't actually work will it?

It's the complete lack of thought that's frightening me.

lThis is not a u-turn. Please do not characterise it as one. They are sticking with the idea. The only difference is it will be a secret list, not a public one. This is little better. It is a huge security risk. Databases of this been proposed before too, only for these challenges over civil liberties and technology to turn out to be a massive financial waste of money. They are Orwellian in nature regardless of whether they are private or public. Lists of this nature made with the best intentions always are misused. How long before the data it contains becomes a valuable commodity which the government see as an asset to sell for example. Once these start they start in other areas of life too. On this and the westministenders and xenophobia thread there has been discussion about the comments Rory Stewart has made about ‘the people being sick of experts’ with regard to decision making. Yet broad as daylight we have another idea which de-humanises and reduces decision making to facts and figures – the very thing that actually appears to have been a huge motivator for the Leave vote in the first place.

Also there is a tactic - announce something really bad that no one will ever accept. This is never your goal. It is to soften up public opinion for a less bad alternative which if voiced first would have been utterly rejected but by announcing the worse one, it makes it more acceptable. Almost like a 'negotiation' with the public.

Don't buy it. If the idea of secret lists had been touted, people would have hated it, and not regarded it as a 'more acceptable' alternative watering down.

They make an announcement that they haven't thought through properly, it causes uproar and then they go, oh fuck, that won't actually work will it

Like Brexit.

Sadly we have many more fuckups to look forward to.

red, whether it's a u turn or a right turn my point is it is not what they announced just a week ago.

How on earth can we hope to negotiate Brexit if we can't stick with a decision for a week before realising it needs a pretty big amendment?

lala, the answer to that is simply 'we can't' precisely because of this current government being very well educated, but managing to be utterly stupid because of blind arrogance.

This is the bottom line, and that is why we are even more FUKD. They are clueless and yes - out of touch.

RedToothbrush and TwoFingers, as I said before, I think it is a very morally suspect position. And I also agree, it's unlikely to be successful. But I do think that is what (some parts) of the government is/was thinking. And they wanted to project a tough stance. And other parts of the government/civil service disagreed.

Also agree about the ratcheting- announce something really bad, so the real object looks like a compromise later.

And expect (more) of the UKIP outriders to return to the Tory fold soon enough.

Is there any chance - any chance at all - that she's tanking it intentionally, so that people demand a general election? And then vote against it happening?

someone help me clutch at this tiny bit of straw

I don't think so - someone's clearly done a bit of focus group research, because these developments seem to be enjoying public approval from many sectors.

"Is there any chance - any chance at all - that she's tanking it intentionally, so that people demand a general election? And then vote against it happening?" No chance. There is no opposition.

I still think May is a canny politician in many ways - a smart politician, though not an especially intelligent or intellectual person.

May's time at the home office tells us she holds very illiberal views and is anti-immigration. However, she's also a pragmatic Tory who believes in a strong economy - hence she was in the remain camp and it may still be that she supports a soft Brexit.

I think recent events are explained by (i) the need to keep the tory party together in order to capitalise on Labour's disarray and (ii) May is gambling that making the UK look like an unwelcoming destination will reduce net migration substantially (the collapse in the pound will also help).

Jonathan Portes has said that he expects migration to fall sharply in the next two years, and if he is right, then this will reduce the pressure on the topic of FoM. Plus, in two years' time everyone but the hardline xenophobes will be heartily sick of Brexit and keen for a workable and not too painful solution. I think that's May's gamble anyway.

She's talking a hard Brexit for someone who may support a soft Brexit.

According a Wall Street insider she 'made it very clear that immigration was the main issue' on her visit there, rather than the single market.

If she really believes in a strong economy - why is she making the UK equally unwelcoming for business as for immigrants? And unwelcome too - Brussels slams the door on UK companies Why is she killing the pound? Every time she opens her mouth it falls. Is she naive or indifferent?

Either a) she's still in denial about cake and eating it on an EU deal b) or she is genuinely leaning towards hard Brexit.

I think she probably knows that at this point a soft Brexit would split the tory party. Plus, playing at hard Brexit puts both Ukip and Labour in a bind (see: Starmer, K).

May has zero options that are both politically palatable and non-damaging economically.

Like I said, she's politically smart but not especially well-informed or intelligent - for eg, she certainly did not know on September 9th that it was not possible to negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries while still in the EU, or Fox would not have been appointed (she could have got away with just Davis and Johnson).

"Every time she opens her mouth it falls"

A hard Brexit will split the Tories too.

I don't think there's anything to be gained any more by talking hard Brexit if she's intending to opt for a soft one. It's gone too far. She's causing damage that can't be undone.

I don't think you can be politically smart if you're not well-informed.

Either she doesn't really understand the impact of her words on markets or she doesn't care because economics is not her priority. Neither is smart.

I think it's possible that she hasn't fully made her mind up, that a combination of Hammond, business leaders, and Sterling's plight, plus cross-party insistence and/or legal challenges force her to put at least the single market to the vote if not A50 as well - that she may see sense eventually. But at this point it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that she sides with the 3 Brexiteers against Hammond. That may get blocked in the long run, but not before causing a ruckus.

What about the Liberals, do they stand a chance in hell to take advantage of Labour's infighting and Tory right turn? I am pondering whether to join them

OMG i googled 'the liberal party' and their website design has put me right off. What are they thinking www.liberal.org.uk

Do you mean the Libdems?

Paragraph 1 of the preamble to the Constitution of the Liberal Party

The Liberal Party exists to create a liberal society, in which every citizen shall possess liberty, property and security, and none shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity. Its chief care is for the rights and opportunities of the individual, and in all spheres it sets freedom first.’

Sounds great. I wonder if "every citizen" includes foreigners.

Yes dorothy I think you're right, Phew, wrong website.
www.libdems.org.uk looks more like it.
I didi rather like the paragraph 1 of the preamble to the Constitution of the Liberal Party though. Who are they?

Oh it gets better: from their wwebsite (the real one)
The Liberal Democrats are the only party fighting to keep Britain open, tolerant and united.

Open means open-hearted, open-minded, forward-looking, modern, green, internationalist and pro-European. We believe Britain is at its best when it is creative, innovative and outward-looking, comfortable in the fast-changing modern world and open to the opportunities and challenges of globalisation and the digital revolution.

Tolerant means diverse, compassionate and generous. We will always fight injustice and stand up for the underdog, the outsider, the individual, the minority and the vulnerable against the powerful.

United means we will always put the interests of the whole United Kingdom first. We reject the divisions in society, whether between young and old, urban and rural, leave and remain, or between regions and nations. We believe we are stronger – as communities, as a country and as a world – when we work together in our common interest.

We believe in Opportunity. That everyone, no matter what your background, should have the same chance in life. We want to fight injustice, reduce inequality and break down the barriers that hold people back, whether it is in schools, the workplace or anywhere people are denied a fair chance.

Sounds great.

The LibDems are doing their best, but it's a long road back. I think people realised that they did moderate some of the Coalition's worst excesses, but it's still hard for people to forgive them for going into Coalition or the student fees debacle.

They are pulling out all the stops for the Witney by-election, but I suspect 2nd place is the best they will be able to achieve. On the otherhand, they have won 19 council by elections picking up votes from both Labour and Conservative, but not too much should be inferred from that.

No not just you.

There was a thread about joint the lib deems recently, i'll see if i can find it.

They stole from and killed millions of innocent people over past couple of centuries. Survivors and previous victims have to deal with war trauma and the predatory behaviour of their men. They can't imagine why everyone is leaving the churches that sponsored much of this and many stopped having kids. They decide mass immigration will keep numbers looking good. Then 9/11 is payback time and the genocidal rapist pedophile types are being actively encouraged to go on the loose again...we are in some seriously deep #%}.