Xenophobia: Brexit official discourse

[jaws5]

Hearing one minister after another at the Tory conference today has made me feel ill: So foreign doctors are welcome UNTIL more British doctors have been trained in a hurry, foreigners will be treated as second class citizens when applying for a job, and EU nationals are one of the "main cards" in Brexit negotiations. I cannot imagine any other country in the world where the official discourse of the governing party would include these statements without it being condemned as xenophobic. Shame on them.

[RedToothBrush]

Okay jaws, you are right, I am wrong. 70% of people where I live are idiots. I am racist and so is almost everyone I know round here. Anyone who values any aspects of where they live and doesn't want to lose them is a backward looking, xenophobic fool. Brexit is an awful idea, the EU has been fantastic for working class people, anyone who says otherwise is a bigoted, uneducated idiot.

I DON'T think the EU has been great for a whole lot of people.

I do think that Brexit is the wrong solution to the problem though. Its been missold - not just on the back of lies, but also in what the problems we face are in the first place. I think its been sold to a lot of different people in different ways - both educated and uneducated in a very clever way. Under the banner of belief, mixed with hope.

It was deliberately pitched to empower people. It sought to make people think and consider their own beliefs and feel confident in them. It provided something from respected individuals to take something from and then add to. It gave people the power to shape Brexit in their own heads. It gave answers which seemed to fit the problems people face and fitted with their own belief system. It was logical and made perfect sense to a lot of people.

Therein lies the issue though.

If you are working class and think that the middle class look down on you, then you don't value their opinions or 'experts'. This is, at least in part, due to class divisions as mentioned above. You are not going to look through X analysis on the subject. It doesn't make you stupid. It just means you don't place the same value on it as someone else who comes across reports like this on a daily basis. Its a cultural / class difference in many ways. The 'stupid' comments by those who do value such methods only serve to reinforce the view though.

Belief is a powerful thing and shouldn't be dismissed. Everyone believes in something regardless of the facts behind it at some point - because it suits them and they can't be arsed to challenge that opinion. This is something educated people are just as guilty of. If only because there are only so many hours in the day or a certain subject just doesn't really interest someone.

Then you have to consider religion. It is not the preserve of the uneducated is it? That's belief. Is it wrong to believe? Especially if it provides much needed hope?

Then there is effect of living in society and collective reinforcement and how we are influenced by others. Its telling how polarised things are, and the degree to which the 'echo chamber' existed/exists.

So ultimately it comes down to what people want to believe but its also about what they value too.

May's attempt to engage with Remainers to support Brexit on the grounds of patriotism and democracy, is therefore never going to work and will only serve to be even more divisive. It misses the point that they voted on the basis of certain solid things and dismissed the pitches of patriotism and democracy first time round. Until she can present a case that people can assess, because it contains things that they value, then they will continue to be massively dismissive of Brexit and see it as 'stupid'.

Its funny how this thread is turning into the ref debate all over again. That is purely done to how the Tory Conference has handled it. For all her pitching, the vision May is trying to sell is NOT 'a country that works for everyone' because of the way she is trying to sell it.

[Peregrina]

So you want a change to the status quo? Fine. Back to my question, are you happy with the proposals for how it will be delivered?

Not frustrating for Remainers at all - we would have had more of the same but a voice at the table to influence change. Now we have shut ourselves out of that, for what? Those firms which want to trade with the EU will have to abide by their regulations, but have no say. That is where the frustration comes in, and 3 and a half months on I want something more tangible than, oh well, it'll work out in the end, whilst the one thing which is on offer, namely racist policies, is not what I want and will do all in my power to opposed.

[TheElementsSong]

Back the the old sneering thing - is it or is it not also sneering to proclaim "Well I'm going to get what I want, ner ner ner"?

And while we're there, given that this is a thread documenting the recent and numerous xenophobic pronouncements of the party in government - shall we take it as read that these are indeed precisely what certain posters on here want (after all, they could simply have not posted on this thread if that were not the case)? So a big thumbs up for treating foreign doctors as unfeeling lumpy bits of temporary filler, for treating EU citizens' lives as SimCity tokens, for dossiers of foreign staff to be made public?

[RedToothBrush]

Take Brexit out of the equation.

How many of these newly announced policy changes could be implemented in someway to improve the UK without it?

The answer is the vast majority with a bit of thought.

Why aren't we those - which are radical enough - without Brexit first?

The answer is pure politics not about providing genuine solutions the problems we face.

[Peregrina]

How many policies could be implemented? The vast majority, as you say. How many will be implemented once TM has captured the vote of the disaffected? Precious few, unless it helps her wealthy chums, although I do admit, she does seem to be trying to antagonise certain wealthy sectors.

I disliked Maggie Thatcher intensely, but she had more of the common touch than Theresa May.

[raisedbyguineapigs]

The problems will come when the consequences become clear to those who voted brexit. If we are talking about class, the university educated middle class will probably be able to find the means to get their children working and travelling in Europe. Many of my friends are already looking to doing this, and getting dual citizenship of possible. The people who voted to reduce immigration who are unskilled and don't see the benefit of freedom of movement are going to be the ones forced into seasonal labour on farms and plucking Turkeys in the abbatoir because that's what many eastern European migrants are doing. They will suffer most from the reduced tax take and the shortage of staff in the NHS and care sector, and will be the ones who will suffer if suddenly there isn't money to find regeneration projects in the poorest areas.

[smallfox2002]

None 9f the immigration policies could be implemented!

The bigotry of them is breath taking.

Wendy are you going to tell me what you votes for? A win is only a win if you benefit, I doubt you will.

[jaws5]

Red I very much doubt that the policies proposed yesterday in particular, that I refered to in my OP and foreign workers in companies, would be voiced without Brexit having won. Brexit has legitimized xenophobic policies that would have been unthinkable before.

[Helmetbymidnight]

I can't see how anyone can feel they've 'won' by having
a. The phasing out of 'foreign' doctors
B. Having companies declare foreign workers.
It is pointless pandering to racists.

[IamWendy]

I'm sorry, should I have contributed with statements about my wealth and success???
Ok....

[smallfox2002]

No you said I wouldn't get what I want.. I pointed out that actually in the EU or outside my fortunes are unlikely to change. However I do have deep concerns for the plight of others.

So whilst you may get what you want and gain dip satisfaction at winning,it doesn't really effect me.

[IamWendy]

Ok, so if the brexit vote wont affect you in any way, why are you so insistant on hearing why it affects me? Maybe my reasons are ideological, therefore I don't need a direct benefit to have won. If brexit won't affect you, why not let those who might be affected have their say instead of calling them all idiots and dribbling morons?

[smallfox2002]

Because all of the reasons given so fat have been based on ill informed opinions.

Even the democracy and sovereignty argument.

In essence a vote to leave was based, as is proven by the policies laid forth at conference, on xenophobia. Mainly by people who live in areas of low immigration.

[smallfox2002]

Oh and goady types like you turning up with vacuous points.

Rather confirming my point.

[IamWendy]

Do I need to be rich to have a valid opinion?

[jaws5]

TM and the tory conference have confirmed what we knew, that people voted to get immigrants out, and the government are going to deliver that. Of course any immigrants among us, and our partners and friends are you going to be angry and scared. And wendy, we know how happy you are about it!

[jaws5]

Still no mention of the fate of British "expats" (let's not call them migrants) in Europe.... I wonder how Leavers would react if governments there threatened them in the same way! But unless the extreme right rules in those countries that kind of proposal is unthinkable

[Mistigri]

wrongtrouser I agree that throwing insults at individuals isn't helpful, but opinions (and by extension their holders) can objectively be characterised as hypocritical or ill-informed. The failure of many "sovereignty" brexiters to be concerned about May's intentions to reduce or remove parliamentary scrutiny is the very definition of hypocrisy for the more informed among them, and a sign of woeful ignorance for the rest. I don't see what anyone gains by pretending otherwise.

FWIW my leave-voting, long-time Eurosceptic father is aghast at what May appears to be planning.

[ManonLescaut]

I disliked Maggie Thatcher intensely, but she had more of the common touch than Theresa May

I felt exactly the same, but Mrs T was more intelligent and more astute than May, who has a very mediocre mind.

She's fucked up the A50 timetable already.

FWIW my leave-voting, long-time Eurosceptic father is aghast at what May appears to be planning

She's busy alienating core Tory voters.

[jaws5]

How do you think she's fucked up the A50 tt manon? (hopeful)

[ScaredFuture99]

Where all the campaign was going on, there was plenty of British immigrants in Europe who were saying that a Brexit vote didn't matter to them because they would just be allowed to stay anyway.

(Btw, if I am an immigrant and not an expat or whatever, then British people living in Europe are immigrants too.)

But the EU and some European countries have already made out VERY clear to TM that her attitude towards Europeans is unacceptable. maybe not so strangely, 1- this wasn't widely reported in the uk and 2- TM took no notice.

I'm still surprised to see few people, especially people who were pro Brexit, actually saying what they think about TM decisions.
So far we've had talks about why Brexit again. Talks about why TM is heading in a certain direction.
Not a word about the dangers of what is going on atm.

And this is what I see from where I am

• a country where the top politicians have made it very clear that xenophobic attitudes are OK. Either through their talks aboout immigrants and how it is essential to get rid of them (eg training more doctors to have less forensic doctors etc...) or by not saying anything (eg aboout ten increase of xenophobic attacks. The problem of course is that not saying anything it's similar to approving)
  
• a system that is slowly put in place to have a clear record of who and where foreigners are. This could easily then centralised and used. Maybe to make statistic that will fit a certain discourse. maybe to track people in the event of a hard Brexit. aybe just because it helps 'othering' foreigners and get people used to the idea that they shouldn't be there and the UK is doing them a favour.

[ScaredFuture99]

Sorry xpost. My internet seems to be playing up.

Agree Mistigri. So many examples of how TM thinks she can decide on her own and doesn't have to report to anyone.

[YetAnotherHelenMumsnet]

Evening all,
We've made some deletions on this thread. We know that feelings are running extremely high still on both sides of the Brexit discussion, especially in light of recent developments at the Conservative Party Conference, but just to remind you all that personal attacks and goading are against our guidelines.