Does what make me most sad about Brexit make other leave voters sad?

[TooTiredToTidy]

The saddest thing for me of all about Brexit (and there are soooo many) is that it's the country I was born in and have loved and been proud of all my life isn't the one I knew after all. I recently re-watched the London 2012 opening ceremony and it made me super sad because I remember being so proud of my country as I saw it - multicultural, diverse, open, tolerant, celebrating of knowledge, achievement, working together, ensuring fairness prevailed.

And since I've found out it isn't. There is more racism and more xenophobia than I realised. I found out so many of my countrymen have been simmering with so much anger, that what I thought was a bit of nostalgia is actually a real desire to live in the rose-tinted past, that we are sick of experts, that we so hate being part of the EU we are fine to screw over our the youth who overwhelming wanted to remain scientists (ditto) Scotland (ditto) Northern Ireland (ditto) etc. That we are more little England than Great Britain.

The huge rise in hate crime post Brexit has not personally impacted me but has impacted people I know. People who do and don't come from the EU have been told to 'go back to where you come from' and when speaking a foreign language told to speak English.

This German woman who rang into LBC radio show literally made me cry and feel heartbroken: www.lbc.co.uk/im-so-scared-now-german-woman-hit-by-xenophobia-calls-james-in-tears-132971

I know not many leave voters will have directly anticipated all these things happening but I want to know how they feel about them themselves? Other online trolls/posters I've asked just deny the rise in hate crime or say you can't believe everything you hear and say it's not happening. It is happening.

Equally if you've experienced something yourself as either an immigrant or is hate crime related I'd really like to hear about it.

There is a lot of talk in education, social services, charities etc, about celebrating and preserving (I can't think of the right word, not really preserving) people's culture from ethnic minority backgrounds.

Likewise Scottish culture or Irish culture is seen as a "thing". But when British or heaven forbid English culture is mentioned, the reaction is more often than not either disbelief that such a thing exists or sneering.

A very interesting Point.
Ive never understood the logic behind that either.
Why do we, as a Nation, bend over backwards to preserve other cultures who live here, but as soon British people express a desire to 'hold on to things' they get accused of being small minded and racist.
It is even worse if you're English.

As to your point on words. Do you not acknowledge that some elements of the current othering of immigrants, and whilst you may or may not be xenophobic you are othering them, is due to xenophobia, defined as fear or dislike of foreigners? That xenophobia is factor in some people's attitudes?

But Jamie is talking about 'asserting a British identity' that would seem to be something new to be created, after the fact of immigration. If you have to 'assert' it, where was it when immigration began? What was it before? You can't create a post hoc British identity whose unifying feature is that it's not foreign.

RedAndYellowStripe,
I dont have an answer to the migrant issue. Maybe we need to stop intervening in other countries affairs, idk. This is about how we deal with the racism and xenophobia in the UK (which was growing long before we had a referendum) and I think leaving the EU will in the medium term, help reduce it.

You think leaving the EU will help address the migrant issue, I assume, not the racism and xenophobia? Because that's very obviously not the case!

whats the point I think the word being reached for there was "respecting". I think the point is that we understand Britishness, "Englishness" within that has tended for historical reasons other British identities have kicked against. I certainly feel more Northern than I do English and we don't even have an Independence movement>

As we have seen from this thread an ignorance of other cultures leads to othering and prejudice, whereas understanding and respecting cultures leads to being able to coexist and getting the most from the experience.

My children went to two schools overseas, one was a French International School. It was all about French culture and values and not surprisingly it was Agincourt in the playground every day. We moved them to a British School that celebrated their "human rainbow never ending" and they soon had friends from across the world. It made a huge difference but it was still very much a British School.

SeekEvery, its about having time for our identity to emerge. The shadow of the EU has dimmed what it means to be British. As a county with a lot of EU nationals still incoming, a period of less change/more control, to let people integrate here and current residents adapt to the changes, will be stabilizing to those of the population who are finding globalization discombobulating. After we have had a few governments with mandates to change any EU laws etc I think we will be a stronger country in relation to our perspective on immigration.
I am hopeful.

some elements of the current othering of immigrants ... is due to xenophobia, defined as fear or dislike of foreigners?
To say that some people do this are xenophobic does not mean all people are or that I am. I neither fear of dislike foreigners as a group. I have all the way through this thread been trying to put forward the argument that to assert a British identity is not racist and that multiculturalism is not the best way to make a stable tolerant society. When people are confident in their identity they are more able to cope and accept differences. Some wealthier people more than others.

So we'll be more tolerant when there's less to tolerate?

So why do you think it is that people who live in very ethnically diverse areas are less likely to view immigration as a problem?

So why do you think it is that people who live in very ethnically diverse areas are less likely to view immigration as a problem?

Stockholm syndrome?

It's about having time for our identity to emerge?

The shadow of the eu has dimmed what it is to be British?

I haven't a clue what you are getting at.

Jamie as an eu 'immigrant' I can tell you that Brexit and going out of the EU has increased xenophobic attitudes. It has allowed them to be OK and mainstream.

I can't see it helping TBH. Not when saying that immigrants are all here to take British jobs is now a normal thing to say for example. Or when you want to companies to publish a list of how many foreigners they employ etc.. (I know she has backtracked on that - but the idea is there iyswim).

I'm also wondering about this idea of the British culture.
Is there a British culture? There is a Scottish culture, an Irish culture, a Welsh culture actually even a culture from Yorkshire. But a British culture? I'm not so sure.
A lot of people I see are English or Scottish first, then sometimes European before they are British. Very rarely they are British first.
If I talk to my teenagers, they don't feel that NI is really part of the UK either. It's there, part of the UK on paper but very distinct. I have felt that with other people too.
The fact that being British isn't a strong feeling has nothing to do with the EU though. It has everything to do with the history of the uk and the way the political powers are 'down south in London' etc...

The Union dates back to the 18th century. Surely by now the sentiment of being British should be strong? And if it isn't, it's not because of immigration that dates back 50 years.

Btw I do agree that a strong feeling of identity as British can help with coping with immigration.
It can also help in that you can tell people 'here, this is what being British means. We are asking you to behave in that way - at least in public'

The issue is more that you are not going to have a stringer British feeling/identity by having less immigrants.
It's much more complicated than that and goes much deeper than a few shops etc... Having a British identity would mean english and Scottish people saying they share the same culture. Do you think it will happen soon?

I've asked this on a different thread - how many of you saw leaving the EU as a solution to these problems before, say, September 2015? Can any of you honestly say that, without reading a newspaper leader or listening to a politician, you honestly looked at, say, an Asian supermarket or waited three weeks for a GP appointment and thought to yourself "this is only happening because we are in the EU, and if we left, X would happen and Y would improve"? And were any of you motivated to do anything about it in a concrete way?

I had the Simon Mayo 'Confessions' music playing in my head as I read the OP.

Also if anyone can even begin to explain how "the shadow of the EU has dimmed what it means to be British" means I will be much obliged.

Yes I have been wondering that too cecile as I haven't seen the EU having that effect in any other EU country.

ron Respecting wasn't the word I was searching for (in considering the difference between how British or English cultures and other are treated in schools, social services etc). I still can't think of a word but I mean seen as something important, real, to be cherished, preserved, learnt about and passed on

Seek above seems to be more or less defining British culture in a negative sense (not judgementally negative but just "not foreign"). That says a lot to me - that our own culture is just seems as a lack of someone else's, if you see what I mean. Is this not a strange state of affairs?

I don't see it that way. We have a fascinating history, working class history and struggles to be proud of, scientific discoveries, books, etc etc. Not just a blank cultural page waiting for some vibrant person from another country to fill it.

I agree that the British/English identity issue is a Big Thing (as in, whether people identify as British or English - nightmare).

Quite Cecile - the vast majority neither knew nor cared about the EU, or only in so far as it made their holidays to Greece or Spain a bit easier! If there were problems with immigration it was much more likely because there were too many black or brown people in their eyes.

Also, this is going to sound very self righteous, but here we go: instead of trying to get other people to push off or asking the government to preserve my Britishness, I say please and thank you a lot, queue patiently, talk about the weather every day, listen to the Archers, support a choir that sings a lot of Anglican choral music in a lovely church, read books by English authors I love, appreciate sarcasm and irony properly and write as correctly and as well as I can in English. I also enjoy aspects of other cultures too. It will be different for everyone though.

I identify as British when abroad, because having grown up in Wales, but having been born and now living in England, I can't wholly subscibe to being English, and the Welsh, Scots and Irish are not English, despite what other countries think.

I think the English tend to identify more as North, South, West Country. In so far as I am English, I was a Northerner, but now I have lived in the South for vastly longer - but I still have northern vowels, so what does that make me?

Actually I might have completely misunderstood what Seek was saying there. I was talking about this comment:

But Jamie is talking about 'asserting a British identity' that would seem to be something new to be created, after the fact of immigration. If you have to 'assert' it, where was it when immigration began? What was it before? You can't create a post hoc British identity whose unifying feature is that it's not foreign

Are you saying Seek that there is no such thing as a British culture? Probably not

The year before last I attended the school proms, fun family/villagey affair, lots of flag waving. This year, two days after the ref, flags left on the ground, no waving, no singing. Same attendees as all from school community. So, were the people pretending to enjoy a British 'do' in 2015 but didn't bother in 2016 as they were cheesed off with the vote? Because if they were happy to Sing Rule Brittania in 2015 surely tgey'd be happy to sing it in 2016? People keep saying the referendum has brought out a lot of stuff that was bubbling under the surface, and I agree...

The EU the Great White Fortress, Keeping migration from outside out whilst keeping nice white folk in.

Big Surprises among Remain voters to learn actually Black minority vote very much up for grabs by Leave.

The Big White Fortress, Competition for lower paid jobs with the Eastern Europeans and finally the extreme racism present in many countries in the EU. Hard core racists that is.