Does what make me most sad about Brexit make other leave voters sad?

[TooTiredToTidy]

The saddest thing for me of all about Brexit (and there are soooo many) is that it's the country I was born in and have loved and been proud of all my life isn't the one I knew after all. I recently re-watched the London 2012 opening ceremony and it made me super sad because I remember being so proud of my country as I saw it - multicultural, diverse, open, tolerant, celebrating of knowledge, achievement, working together, ensuring fairness prevailed.

And since I've found out it isn't. There is more racism and more xenophobia than I realised. I found out so many of my countrymen have been simmering with so much anger, that what I thought was a bit of nostalgia is actually a real desire to live in the rose-tinted past, that we are sick of experts, that we so hate being part of the EU we are fine to screw over our the youth who overwhelming wanted to remain scientists (ditto) Scotland (ditto) Northern Ireland (ditto) etc. That we are more little England than Great Britain.

The huge rise in hate crime post Brexit has not personally impacted me but has impacted people I know. People who do and don't come from the EU have been told to 'go back to where you come from' and when speaking a foreign language told to speak English.

This German woman who rang into LBC radio show literally made me cry and feel heartbroken: www.lbc.co.uk/im-so-scared-now-german-woman-hit-by-xenophobia-calls-james-in-tears-132971

I know not many leave voters will have directly anticipated all these things happening but I want to know how they feel about them themselves? Other online trolls/posters I've asked just deny the rise in hate crime or say you can't believe everything you hear and say it's not happening. It is happening.

Equally if you've experienced something yourself as either an immigrant or is hate crime related I'd really like to hear about it.

Has anyone else bought Regula Ysewijn's cook book, Pride and Pudding? She gives a very well researched history of English cooking.

Rice pudding exists in every European country I know well. There is absolutely nothing English about it.

Kaija I suspect that Jamie is talking about those areas that have become exclusively Asian or whatever.
It's not just the shops, it's the language etc.

nvm, if I am just going to be insulted I will shut up.

Who has insulted you jamie

Its a bit much to have a discussion when whatwouldrondo, says "A lot of other people think you are sad and xenophobic".

I suspect that Jamie is talking about the Asian areas in e.g. Bradford, Tower Hamlets. How will leaving the EU help that? The Asian areas are a product of our Empire. If Theresa May wants a deal with India, she will have to allow more Asians in.

"Kaija I suspect that Jamie is talking about those areas that have become exclusively Asian or whatever.
It's not just the shops, it's the language etc."

In which case it's got bugger all to do with the EU.

Oh i am sorry jamie

I missed that...in my defence it was between my posts, i think i get a bit word blind

In which case it's got bugger all to do with the EU

Only their was 10,000 migrants in Calais trying to break in to England.

I would say it tends to be in the Asian areas where the older women at least don't learn English. So we quit the EU to solve a problem which is a legacy of Empire.

E Europeans coming in tend to be younger, working and pick up the language even if they start with little.

Most EU migrants have at least rudimentary English on arrival because they have been through advanced education systems. They are highly motivated to improve their English.

Only their was 10,000 migrants in Calais trying to break in to England.

And these were EU citizens? Or were they refugees from war torn countries, some of which e.g. Iraq, Libya, the UK has helped to bugger up in a big way, thus helping to cause the situation.

RedandYellow But in Bradford the asian area is not exclusive. It has also existed for a very long time, and before it was Asian it was Eastern European and before it was Eastern European it was Irish, and before that it was all the people who went there for work from across the country during the Industrial revolution. At one point Bowling had the highest infant mortality rate in the country and the life expectancy was 5 years, some parts of society blamed that on the riff raf arriving from the rest of the UK, and then later, Ireland.

The thing is that in the 70s there was nowhere near the extent of othering of the Asian community as is happening now, and it is coming from the mouths of the same people who were tolerant in the 70s, I speak fro intimate knowledge . What has changed? The rhetoric they are coming out with is as likely to focus on doctor's surgeries and schools in Lincolnshire as actually Bradford, where they are still going to the same restaurants etc. (look at the success of Prashad). I am quite sure these feelings have been whipped up by politicians and the media.

And these were EU citizens? Or were they refugees from war torn countries And the EU invited them in and allowed them to cross the continent. I agree that leaving the EU wont in itself solve the problem from that side but it should enable us to reassert a British identity which will make us more confident in tolerating these immigrants.

Its the lack of control that people feel when we are dictated to from Brussels and told you are taking x amount of migrants whether you like it or not.

But Jamie that is exactly the divide. You quite happily throw about terms like "liberal elite" and "bubble" which you intend in a derogatory way. I acknowledge there is something in those terms but not as way to define, other and divide people. I therefore find it pretty insulting when people do that in the latter way. It is alright for you to do that but not for others to do that to you?

we are dictated to from Brussels and told you are taking x amount of migrants whether you like it or not. When did that happen? We took far fewer refugees than countries like Germany and France, or indeed the US or Australia, let alone Canada, in the year before the referendum, just 3000. Australia took 30000. It was a shameful number for the fifth largest economy in the world. Our obligations on refugees are agreed with the rest of the world, not just the EU.

Jamie the eu didn't 'invite' them.
These are people who cross the Med on their own and arrived by various means onto the European continent.
Of course a good way would have been to just send them back - how I'm not sure nor who would have paid for that -
However the reason why it hasn't happened is because it would have been a real humanitarian crisis. I mean, no one in the UK would think that we should just send a horse back to its owner when said owner mistreated him. So why on earth would we do that for human beings???

So European (as in the EU and other countries such as Turkey)are trying to find the best way to deal with all these refugees in the most humane and compassionate ways.

On the other side, the uk has said loud and clear that they are refusing said refugees even when they are children (and I don't mean a 17yo there but a 10 or 12yo) and the only family they have left is in the uk.

Besides, you also need to remember that the agreement et at Calais means that the border is in Calais so it's France who has to deal with those people rather the UK.
Now, once the uk will be out of the EU, I suspect that the agreement t will be cancelled (it has already been mentioned btw) so the border will back in the uk and ... yep, it will be up the uk to deal with those.
I'm sure than on an immigration POV and esp illegal immigrants, it was better to be in the EU TBH.

But Jamie that is exactly the divide, I intend to use words in a negative but not derogatory way. If that makes sense Or to put it another way, some words are worse than others.

When did that happen?
It didn't, yet, but the intention of the EU to do that was very clear. As we were voting on what the EU would be like for the next 40 its pretty fair to suggest its possible if not probable.

We took far fewer refugees than countries like Germany and France And gave more aid to Syria than any other country in the EU. And Australia is not a good example to follow in this matter.

The same people here who complain about the 'polish ghetto' (a couple of shops) also complain just as voraciously about 'gentrification' of another area by rich Londoners. Some people just can't take change I think.

Specialist shops are a consequence of the rise of online shopping - physical shops have to offer an 'experience' be 'distinctive' whether that's a hippy cereal cafe or a supermarket where everything is written in another language.

I genuinely don't think anything can be done about 'ghettoisation' if I can use that word - even if you banned all immigrants and shipped out anyone that didn't match certain traits or history, people still wouldn't talk to each other as much or pop to the shops every day.

RedAndYellowStripe, Angela Merkel invited them into the free movement area of the EU. Without the consent of the EU. But it affects the whole of the EU.

Jamie re being told how many immigrants to take.

Do you have any other ideas on how to deal with this crisis?
What do you thigh should happen when those people are arriving by boat or whatever on the European continent (usually in turkey btw)?
Are you happy to spend the money to ensure that peace restore there so they don't have to leave in the first place? Or have some money available for refugee camps so they are warm and have something to eat throughout the winter?
How do you propose other countries in Europe look for illegal immigrants when we, ourselves, aren't able to?

I think it's too easy to say 'no my problem, deal with it and refuse to take resposnibility in what is a huge humanitarian crisis that the uk, amongst others, created in the first place.

The issue with Calais is much much older than that though.
And the people in Calais aren't the ones that Merkel 'allowed' in either. THose are still in Germany.

But anyway I am not trying to argue a point about immigration. I am trying to say that with a stronger UK identity and more control of immigration more people would feel happier with the differences different cultures bring. This would reduce racism and xenophobia, which is what the op is worried about.

Do you have any other ideas on how to deal with this crisis?

I think you have to deal with it by consent, you shouldn't force countries to do things they dont want to or there will be a backlash. And I think Brexit is a backlash against people worried the EU will over the next 40 years be forcing the UK to do things it doesn't want to do.

Why is Australia not a good example to use to highlight our record on taking refugees when they took 30000, ten times the number we did? Is it because the media here have portrayed them as having racist immigration policies and have highlighted the shameful treatment by the Northern Territories of those arriving on their northern shores. I was highlighting Australia for precisely that reason, our record on refugees and non EU migrants is actually worse. Actually Australia's immigration policy allows in many more economic migrants as well as refugees than ours, they certainly do not have the same inhumane treatment of e.g. spouses, the skills based points system applies to only a proportion, and the rest of Australia is shocked and horrified by what has happened on their northern coasts.